>> My name is Ken Tashiro. My wife and I like to sing, and when we were living on the big island, I was inspired to write this song, and she helped me with the lyrics.
>> What is the song?
>> It’s “This Land is Your Land,” and it was written by Woody Guthrie, and it was sung by Pete Seeger. And so we took those words, and we made new words for it that applied to Korea. I was in Korea from July 4th, 1950. I was there 1 week after the war started. I was in Japan with the occupation, so this song details all the things that I’ve seen. I started out in Busan, went up to the [INAUDIBLE] and had the first battle and went up to …
[ Chatter ]
>> Okay. All right. And then we went up to North Korea, went to Pyongyang, and then we were 5 or 10 miles south of the Yellow River when the Chinese communists came in, and so we had to retreat, so …
>> Were you part of the Task Force Smith?
>> No. If I had been, I’m afraid I would’ve been dead, but we were … I was fortunate and got back, and got back south of Seoul, and then in June of 1951, I had enough points to rotate to go back to the mainland or to Japan, and since I had almost 10 months left, they had me sent to Japan. Then I got out May of 1952, so I almost spent 5 years in the army. But this song reflected my feelings and the third verse about the people that were killed and about the people who were wounded, and maybe they weren’t wounded in body, but they were wounded in mind or in the soul, so that’s what that came from.
>> Can you take it out, the lyrics, so I could show the lyrics?
>> Yes.
>> How long did it take you to write it?
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Okay.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> You know, here I was so surprised that you wrote against the armies of North Korea and the Chinese commies too. Many of your friends, your comrades in the chapters, they’re Chinese Americans, and, first of all, you as a Japanese American, what did it feel like to you? Because there’s a very complicated relationship between US and Japan at the time because it was right after World War II and Pearl Harbor, and you were here in Hawaii. And then, of course, the Japanese had colonialized Korea before, and so there was that very complicated relationship. So what, as a Japanese American … It’s not like you chose to make all of that happen. It was more political. What, as a young boy, how did it make you feel? It must’ve been so difficult.
>> Well, as a young boy during World War II, the Japanese Americans were evacuated from the West Coast. I was born and raised in California, and we were forced to leave there and go inland. And then we went to a camp in Gila River, Arizona, and we were in camp for 2 years. Then I was sent out because my dad, who was in the 442, he was an [INAUDIBLE], he was in the 442, but it didn’t make any difference. So we had to go to Minneapolis, and I went to high school there. And finally we got back to California, and then in 1947, I volunteered for the army.
>> Why did you want to volunteer? I would’ve been so angry, honestly.
>> Well, I’m a Christian, first of all.
>> Yes.
>> And so first, I felt very angry about the war, but then I decided that the war, it’s one of those things. There’s a saying in Japanese. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. It means, “Can’t be helped,” but anyway. So I went in the army. I went to army language school. I studied Japanese, and …
>> Did you face any discrimination in Korea?
>> Beg your pardon?
>> Did you face any discrimination or racism in Korea?
>> Well, yeah. In any situation, because of my face, I was often taken for the enemy, and so one thing that saved me was I knew a lot of swearing in American language. And I’d swear like that, and then they’d say, “Oh, he’s GI.” So, anyway.
>> My name is Earl Kalani Simerson. I went to Korea in 1950, July 1950. I followed after the 5th Regimental Combat Team had left before me. I was at that time at the [Indistinct] general’s office in 4th Chapter.
[ Chatter ]
>> You’re a local native Hawaiian. As a local native Hawaiian, what did you know about Korea and the Korean War before you went, and how did you feel about it after?
>> Before the Korean War, I didn’t know nothing about Korea, but after I went there, I left Korea. In Hawaii, well, we always had kimchi, so when I was in Korea, there was a lot of kimchi, so that was my meal, kimchi and rice. Still today, I still got kimchi and rice.
>> You had kimchi before you went to Korea?
>> Yeah.
[ Chatter ]
>> Wow.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] kimchi.
[ Chatter ]
>> Tell me about your experience in the war. Your experience in the war and after.
[ Chatter ]
>> In the beginning, I saw a lot of casualties, and as a young boy, I never seen this in my life, and so I couldn’t eat for 11 days. I was so upset. And after that, I started to eat, understand I got to eat. Otherwise, I’d die. But I learned a lot about the Koreans. They were very nice people. Everywhere we went, they were taking care of every soldier, and otherwise, that’s about all [INAUDIBLE].
[ Chatter ]
>> You can talk about anything you want.
[ Chatter ]
>> Whenever you’re ready.
[ Chatter ]
>> Well, one of the things that we were there, we didn’t have supplies, so I never changed clothes for 3 months. That’s how bad. There was no supplies, no clothing.
[ Chatter ]
My clothes was just like leather. Most of us, every time we went to take a shower, everything was frozen, and so we couldn’t take showers but … And we used to burn houses to keep warm because you had no facilities, and so as we advanced, we’d stand under a house with a cigarette lighter, keep warm. That was it, but we had no winter clothing. By the time April came, 52 of the supplies came. It was too late, but that was because of the war started, and then America wasn’t in any war at that time so unprepared for it, the Korean War.
>> You know Hawaii didn’t become a state officially until 1959?
>> Yeah.
>> And you were sent to Korea in 1950. I don’t understand.
[ Chatter ]
>> Yeah, well, we were a territory of the United States.
>> I know, so did you volunteer, or were you drafted?
>> I volunteered in the Army.
>> Why would you want to volunteer for? Technically it wasn’t even your country.
>> Well, I volunteered in 1948. There was no jobs. Well, most of us all … After you got out of high school … Because of the second war, my parents went broke. We lost everything due to the Second World War so couldn’t go to college, so after I graduated from high school, joined the Army. Most of us all did. We joined the Army to get income, I guess, because at that time, there weren’t many jobs around.
[ Chatter ]
But that was one of the reasons why. Yeah.
[ Chatter ]
>> That makes me sad because you risked your life.
>> What’s that?
>> That makes me sad because you had to risk your life.
[ Chatter ]
It makes me sad because you had to risk your life for it.
>> Yes. When I think of it, oh, my god, I was lucky, but thank God.
[ Chatter ]
All my friends got wounded or were killed in action.
[ Chatter ]
So I’m thankful for what I have today.
[ Chatter ]
>> Thank you.
>> My name is Denis Earp, Earp as in Wyatt Earp. I'm now 86 years old, but in 1950, when the Korean War broke out, I was still only 20, and I hadn't finished my flying training, but the government of South Africa asked for volunteers because for once, the United Nations was able to function as it should, by a pure accident of the Soviets having become angry at something or other, and so they didn't attend. Now at the time, the government decided that the best thing to do would be to send a fighter squadron. Having made some arrangements with the Americans so that we would pay for everything we used, all armament, fuel, aircraft, equipment, everything because all of us were volunteers, which I think makes it a little different story for many other countries. 1950, I spent in great tension following the progress of the Korean War down from the 38th Parallel down to the Pusan perimeter, the breakout at Imjin, the pursuit northwards because I was worried the war would be over before I could get there. I was a second lieutenant, as I said, still on flying training, and I didn't get my wings until December of 1950. Straight after that, Spitfire conversion and operational conversion, and then as soon as we could, we went to Korea, which I reached the end of May, 1951. Now it's a time long ago. Things are different now, but make no mistake. The Korean War was not a quarrel. It was a very big, very important, very violent war, and it made a point in stopping Soviet aggression because the manipulation of Korea was just a byproduct of the Cold War. China and Russia knew what was coming, and they were hoping to break the West's monopoly of resistance in the West. Strangely enough, I think it happened because an American foreign minister made a statement which the Chinese particularly misinterpreted. In an interview in, I think, the early '50s, he said which areas were vital for America, and he named them all over the West, but he did not mention Korea, so the Chinese and the North Koreans interpreted this as being a disengagement on the part of the United States, which it most definitely was not. But America was totally unprepared. When the Korean War broke out, South Korea was not ready for it. It was almost a miracle that the American logistics could reinforce the Pusan perimeter and mobilize allied forces quickly enough to stop having to retreat to Japan because then I think it would have been a very, very long war. In any case, as a second lieutenant, not a student of politics, just a young man, stupid as all young men are, I ended up in a very hot war. As a second lieutenant, my probability of surviving the first few combat missions were low, but you learn very quickly, or you don't survive, and quite a few of my friends were killed. Older and more experienced pilots were killed, and that's a bit of a shock to the system of a young man because you keep believing, "It cannot happen to me," but it does. And on my 65th combat mission, there was a Communist flat gunner who got lucky, and he shot me down, not immediately there, but I was able to fly for about 20 minutes, trying to get back to the lines, but I had a small fire in the cockpit. My feet were burning, and when I got to the point where I'd lost a lot of height, I knew I had to crash-land or bail out. Now the mountains in Korea are not conducive to safe forced landings, so I bailed, and I injured myself, and I had burned feet. I twisted my knee badly on landing, and 7 hours later, I was taken prisoner by the Chinese and then began a little more than 23 months of an experience which I wouldn't wish on anybody. To be a prisoner of the Communists is not a happy state of affairs, and I came very close to dying on several occasions, but by the grace of God, I didn't, and I was released after the armistice which was in July of 1953. I got out in August of '53 and was able to return home in reasonable shape, perhaps a little puzzled in my mind and a little troubled in my memories. So the war ended for me, but that war has not ended for Korea, and I think there's misery ahead for a long time. I hope it'll end peacefully, but I hope it'll still end in my lifetime, but it may not.
>> Can you explain to us a little bit about your day-to-day experience at the POW camps? Because not a lot of people know what it means to be a prisoner of war. What did you eat? Were you able to wash yourself? Were you with other prisoners of war? How were the conditions like? How did you survive?
>> Well, first of all, prisoners were not a common ... I beg your pardon. It's just my cell phone beeping. Prisoners were not at the moment very popular. They weren't prepared for them, neither the North Koreans nor the Chinese. Food, inadequate. No medical attention at all unless you were termed a progressive. If you offered any form of resistance or failed to cooperate, you were then classed as a reactionary, and the reactionaries didn't have a great future. So if in interrogation you resisted, remember that we'd been indoctrinated in the West to believe in the Geneva Convention. To the Chinese and the North Koreans, that was like a red flag to a bull, and immediately, if you pressed your point, you would end up in a hole in the ground, as I often did, tied with your elbows behind your back. Very little food. When it came, you ate like a dog, and your bodily functions were not catered for. You can imagine what that does to your morale after a few days but then if you're taken out and interrogation starts again or lessons. "You must study to learn the truth," was the big Communist message, and if you learn the truth, then you will have a happy daily life and we will take care of you. But if you didn't want to learn the truth and if you resisted, life was not pleasant. In the first winter at a place called [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] which was across on the Yalu River, a little way from the camp that I ended up in, about 1,500 men died, a lack of medicine, a lack of medication, a lack of food and extremely low temperatures, and the horror of that camp was that the ground was too hard to bury those who died, so they had to be laid on top of the ground and stacked until the spring came, and then they could be buried. Now that kind of environment doesn't do good for your ego. It's oppressive, and men sometimes cracked. They just couldn't take it anymore, and then they faced to the wall. Three days, they would die. We lightheartedly called it give-up-itis, but it was a serious problem. The mind definitely controls your body. If your mind says, "You've had enough. Die," you will die. If your mind says, "No. Let's stay with it. You've got a good chance of survival," and there was a lot of luck as an element. In the beginning as a prisoner, I was regularly interrogated, and we had to sit and listen to lectures every day. But later, I think particularly the Chinese realized that they were not getting anywhere, and they left us on our own. The North Koreans were particularly brutal captors. I spent a few weeks at an interrogation center outside of [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] which we called Park's Palace. Now Major Park was a very sadistic man, and he enjoyed torturing people, and torture might have been pleasant from his point of view, but it was not pleasant from the prisoner's point of view. But with a bit of luck, I survived Park's Palace. I survived a march from Pyongyang up to the Yalu River on foot and with prisoners who were not in good physical shape, and on that March, numerous prisoners died, again, bad physical condition, cold weather. The first snows came in. I was in a summer flying suit, and I got very cold, and I learned to my own horror that if I never saw snow again, pleasant as it may be to many people, I would not be sad at all. In brief, it was not a pleasant experience. I survived on the march when I got dysentery, and a friend of mine supported because if you got left behind, you knew that as soon as the group had moved along, there'd be a shot, and that would be the end. And my friend, Mikheli, physically helped me to survive the last few days until we got to [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. Unfortunately, he did at the cost of his own health because he was then diagnosed with a very, very poor heart, and after we got back to South Africa, a few months later, he died. So I owe him a life, but he gave his willingly. So that's, in brief, the story of a long time.
>> You said General Park tortured. We don't understand what kind of torture you're talking. Can you explain what kind of torture?
>> Well, if, for example, he wanted immediate information, such as if a prisoner had attempted to escape, then automatically, that meant it was a capitalist plot, and now you had to tell everything. Now one of the forms which was very unpleasant, they would tie you to a chair, kick the chair over backwards, put a cloth over your face and pour water on the cloth, which then sticks to your face, and you can't get breath. And after you've struggled a while, you lose consciousness, and when you come to, you're now sitting upright, coughing out water, and you get your breath back, and now we can do it all over again until you decide that you're going to give the information which they want. That was one form. Other forms were just direct beating. Some people were hung by their thumbs from a bin, and of course, they dislocated thumbs, dislocated shoulders, so physical torture is something that is not pleasant, and prisoners required a great deal of strength of character to endure and continue to resist. It didn't always help to lie because lies, as often do [INAUDIBLE]. So let's say that being put in a hole without food and water and tied up for a few days is also torture. Then that's not pleasant either.
>> Were you able to wash yourselves?
>> Not when you're in the hole. You had nothing. You mess yourself, and that does bad things to your morale. When you're not being interrogated or being punished, then you're with a group of prisoners who are all classed as reactionaries. In there, you had a reasonable chance of acting normally, bearing in mind that in a Communist system, there are always informers, and you don't know who they are, and the system works in this way that they ask the one informer what happened in that room on that morning, who said what, and he gives a report. Then they've got another informer who informer one doesn't know, and they ask him the same questions so the two informers can cross inform and get the truth. So you were never free to speak, even to your friends. If you wanted to speak, you would walk onto the open ground in front of the schoolhouse, which was prison, and there you could talk, but you had to be very careful because you could be turned in easily.
>> Did they speak English? How did they interrogate you?
>> Well ...
>> Chinese or Korean ...
>> Chinese ...
>> They spoke English?
>> Yeah. Some of them very good English. Some had been educated in universities in England and America.
>> Okay.
>> The Koreans also spoke very good English, and of course, there were always Russians that you knew were there because Russians smoked a cigarette which had a cardboard for the mouthpiece, so if you saw a couple of those lying on the ground, you knew Russians were giving the Chinese or the Koreans the questions to ask.
>> And what kind of questions did they ask?
>> Luckily, most of them were very stupid questions. Initially, they wanted to know, what squadron were you? Who was the squadron commander? Who was the second-in-command? How many men in your flight? How many airplanes? What kind of airplanes? How fast? How high? How many guns? How many bombs? How many rockets? Which are of no value except tactically, and after a few days, that interrogation has no further value except it builds up a pattern that the person being interrogated is going to answer, and I didn't realize that until right in the beginning. I had never been briefed [INAUDIBLE]. "What is your father's name?" I said, "That's got nothing to do with you." "Oh, you are not cooperating." "No, I'm not cooperating." "I'm sticking to the Geneva Convention." Then we get a long lecture on the lenient policy in which you not be killed, you will not be maltreated, provided you cooperate. Now on the question of my father's name, the guy was very polite about it. He said, "All right. If you won't answer, we will give you a little time to think about it," and they put me in a hole in the ground, and they tied me up, and they let me stay there for 2 days, and when I came out, the interrogator said, "Have you thought?" I said, "Yes, I've thought." He said, "And what is the answer? What is your father's name?" And I said, "I'm not going to tell you. It's got nothing to do with you." He said, "Come." He marched me up a hill with a squad of soldiers, stood me up against a tree. He didn't have the soldiers point a gun at me. He took out his pistol, and he cocked it, and he said, "Would you like a blindfold?" And I said, "No, thank you," and he aimed the pistol between my eyes, and he pulled the trigger, and it went click. I'll tell you, that's an incredible psychological letdown when you think you're going to die and you don't. So along that pattern, I realized, if there's a question, you've got to have an answer. Whether it's a lie or not is immaterial, but you will answer, and that's how interrogation builds up. Always the small questions first and then later the political questions, and that's what they were interested in, but we were not politicians. We were professional soldiers, second lieutenants who knew very little about a lot of things, but we survived.
>> So did you eventually give your father's name?
>> I gave my father's name.
>> I think I heard that some of your worst torturers were women. Tell me about that.
>> No, I never had women torturers. There were women nurses that we saw in the hospitals, but we never got to a hospital because we were reactionaries.
>> And about lice.
>> Lice?
>> Dealing with lice because you weren't showering.
>> Well, lice is something I'd never had in my life, but after being along on a march and stop at a village, they put you in a room. The next morning, you itch, and the itch gets worse, and then somebody says, "The reason you're itching is you've got lice," so if you've got a spare minute, get into your clothes, find the lice and kill them. It makes you feel better, and you can imagine if you're tied up, the torture of having lice all over you. For somebody who's not used to it, maybe for the locals it didn't matter, but for me, it meant a lot.
>> And some prisoners had to eat lice to survive, I heard.
>> Well, you ate whatever you could. If you could take something clean off the side of the road in the summer, eat it because your food was essentially two bowls, small bowls, of rice per day, but on that you actually suffering from avitaminosis, beriberi, eye night blindness, illness for which you could be given medicine if you were not a reactionary.
>> And in the camp, were you mixed with other nationalities?
>> Yes, mainly Americans, but in the camp I was in, there were some Turks. There were Filipinos, the South Africans, and I'm trying to think who else. My memory is not as good as it should be, possibly because I don't think back to those days with any great pleasure.
>> Were you mixed?
>> Yes.
>> Or were you segregated?
>> Mixed.
>> Mixed.
>> Interrogation, solitary, only by yourself.
>> I hope many survived like you did.
>> South Africans, eight.
>> Out of how many prisoners of war?
>> Eight.
>> There were eight prisoners of war, but they all survived?
>> South Africans, yes.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> The last man was shot down 3 days before armistice, and he was perhaps the luckiest guy ever because he lost 40 pounds in weight in 40 days, and he was never seriously interrogated.
>> On armistice, which was July 27th, 1953, you were released?
>> Not then. We got released much later. I had made a mistake early on when I was a prisoner. They said, "You are an officer." I said, "Yeah, second lieutenant, very senior." They said, "You must know many things about what bombs do." I said, "I suppose so." They said, "Well, we are subject to unwarranted attacks by the Americans and the Wall Street warmongers, so you will now show us how to build a bombproof bomb shelter." I said, "Okay." So I explained to them how I thought a bomb shelter should be built quite incorrectly, but I then was the foreman, and the Chinese built according to my directions, and we'd almost finished when we were attacked by fighters from my wing, and the bomb shelters collapsed, as I knew they would, but when I was in the bomb shelter, I stuck close to the wall. The guard went in deep and when the shelter collapsed broke his back and killed him. So then I spent a very unpleasant few days being beaten up, and after that, I built the bomb shelters, and our whole platoon of Chinese, they were the supervisors. And because of that, I was tried by a Chinese court. I was given a defense lawyer who pleaded for the death penalty, and he got it. They sentenced me to death for sabotage, but then they said they would not execute the sentence yet, but every time I went for interrogation after that, they'd remind me, and that's why I didn't get released too quickly after armistice, and I didn't know if they would release me until the very end. So I got released in the end of August.
>> One month later.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> But did you know that there was an armistice signed?
>> I knew there was an armistice.
>> How were you informed about it?
>> Well, first of all, we notice stoppage of air flights, the first thing. Then we noticed the Chinese were not quite so hostile. Within 2 days, they formed us up on the playground, and we knew they were going to announce armistice, and we as prisoners said, "Don't show any emotion." So the Chinese commander got up and spoke in Chinese, and then it gets translated into English, and nobody moved. The Chinese commander got very angry and yelled at the interpreter and said, "Did you tell them?" And he said, "Yes," and he told us again, and nobody moved, and this puzzled the Chinese no end. They couldn't understand it, and it gave us a great deal of satisfaction.
>> So you all planned this.
>> We planned it.
>> Wow. All different nationalities, you all just remained calm.
>> And that included the people we knew were informers and traitors because they knew we'd tear them to pieces if they didn't.
>> Did they come back? Did they return?
>> I believe quite a few of them faced court marshals in the States, at any rate. Sad, but that's how people are. You look after yourself.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> When you're starving, you can bribe a man very easily with a bowl of very inferior food or maybe some medicine for serious illnesses.
>> Oh, show your hands. It breaks my heart.
>> We're not sure what caused that, but it damaged the skin, and I think that was because at one stage in the winter when it was very, very cold, they would stand me outside and tie me to a pole with no cover for my hands, and they'd wait just until the frostbite started, and then they would take me into a warm room. Now I don't know if you've ever had frostbite, but when it thaws, it is extremely painful, and this was a very easy way that didn't threaten my life but softened me. You tend to become less resistant when you're treated that way. In any case, I survived those days, and I came back, and I managed to survive another war which lasted 20 years, and in the end, I ended up as the chief of the Air Force, so I couldn't really complain about my career.
>> A general.
>> From second lieutenant to a general.
>> But most of all, that's just so fascinating because most people ... You didn't just go fight and return, but you suffered for almost 2 years as a prisoner, like you said, with your morale, usurping the dignity out of the human being. Most people would want nothing to do with any war, period, so why did you decide to stay in the military in the force?
>> Well, I found that I'd enjoyed my part of the war. I didn't like the part being a prisoner, but by accident of circumstances, I had several flight commanders shut down, and there were no replacements, so they made me as a second lieutenant an acting flight commander, and I found I had an aptitude for leading a flight in combat and achieving great success in attacks on ground targets. So when I came back, I had a choice. I could leave, or I could stay, but at that stage, things were reasonably peaceful, and my option would have been to go to airways and fly as an airline pilot, but my nature was not of that ilk. It wouldn't have worked for me, so I stayed, and it wasn't long in this troubled country that we were in conflict again. So I found I had a natural aptitude for military operations, and that's why I stayed.
>> And you said you went back to Korea. Could you just briefly explain your first impression?
>> 1986, I in fact went on an official visit to Taiwan, and while we were there, we contacted Mr. [INAUDIBLE] who was the then Korean minister of, I think, prisoner affairs, and he said, "Well, why don't you come and visit? Officially, we cannot admit you." They had just at that time refused entry to our minister of defense and our minister of foreign affairs, but in my case, they decided I should go. They treated me like a king. We'd be riding in an elevator up to that very tall building in Seoul 65 floors high, and Mr. [INAUDIBLE] would say to the people, "This man here is a veteran of the Korean War," and they would all smile and come and want to shake my hand, and then he said, "And he was shot down and was a prisoner for 2 years," and then they all wanted to hug me. That's how they were. They were just grateful to see a veteran of the Korean War. They treated me like royalty. The Air Force invited me to a dinner. I was able to lay a wreath at a memorial for the Cluster Regiment on the Imjin River, and as I said, it was a wonderful experience to see the Korea which was devastated rebuilt. And it's interesting. People ask me, "You go to a Korean War, and you didn't even win. What did you achieve?" I say, "Well, let's look at this way. North Korea is the most repressive Stalinist country in the world where there is no freedom, great human rights violations and terrible abuses of people. South Korea is the most progressive open society that you can imagine, and you say we didn't win? I think we did."
>> I think so too.
>> Good.
>> Actually, I know so because I'm here.
>> All right. But remember, I was talking then in 1986. I know things have changed a bit now, but South Korea is still prospering. I think your economy is about third or fourth in the world, and I'm glad.
>> Well, I hope you're very proud.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Hy Kim, are you going to have an interview with me about my time in Korea? Well it's so long ago, 1951. I was 20 years old, turned 21 there, and it was a great experience. We had just received our wings, qualified as pilots with few hours over qualifying, when they said it looked as though the Korean War would be over fairly soon, and we needed that experience. It didn't turn out that way. It all went on until 1953. So I was in 1951, it was a hectic year. It were very experienced pilots gone on the original squadron, and even with them and with us joining we had heavy losses. Almost 29 in the year 1951. Out of the total that we lost the war, 35. So in initial stages the anti aircraft was very bad. But I'm so pleased that I made it because it was an experience, a great experience.
>> What was your rank at the time?
>> I was a second lieutenant. Just shortly received my wings and we were commissioned when I was a second lieutenant.
>> And how old were you?
>> I was 20 years old then, turned 21 during my tour there.
>> How about the rest of the pilots?
>> Well as I said, you know, they were many of World War II pilots, they were just completing their tour already and were returning back to base and we then went as a replacement. And the powers to be thought it would be a great experience before the war would stop and it didn't, in fact, as I said it continued until '53.
>> Did you volunteer or were you ...?
>> Yes.
>> Why?
>> Well, you know what?
I was in Korea, decided on the Air Force as my career and my country had committed to helping the United Nations in the war so it was quite a natural thing. You volunteer and sign on the dotted line and off we went, you know? And looking back, I'm pleased about the great experience. The sad part about it having lost so many close friends. It was such a short period of time.
>> During the war you lost many friends?
>> Yes. Well as I said, you know, it was just in that one first year, 1951, those 29 pilots were lost. We lost a total of 35 so in the initial stages. The anti aircraft and so forth was really hectic, but as that sort of decreased, the losses diminished also. And towards the end, they didn't fly the Mustang anymore like I did. They flew the Saber, which is not as vulnerable, you know, as the Mustang was.
>> The Mustang is very, very famous. Why is it so famous?
>> It started as a great aircraft in World War II, and it was vulnerable in that it had a coolant system, wiping, running, you know, and being so easily damaged by anti aircraft fire. That was the only drawback about it, but it handled well. The endurance was very long. Compared to the Spitfire that I flew previously, which had a very limited flight endurance, the Mustang had a very long endurance. They were flights up to 7 hours, you know, with dropped tanks and so forth.
>> Do you remember a specific battle that was important to South Africa? So in South Africa, only Air Force?
>> Yes. Oh, no, that's wrong. The Air Force was the main contribution that we made on two [INAUDIBLE] squadron. Oversize squadron because replacements, you know, took quite a while because of the distance and so forth. They were only also Army contingents, officers, [Indistinct] to a British regiment. A contra member or fan, I taught 10 of them. Also shared in the war, on the ground forces with the British.
>> Well among other United Nations, there weren't too many Air Force, right?
>> Air Forces contributing, there was your UCEF and our Air Force, and then the British also had aircraft flying from carriers. The Australians had [INAUDIBLE], jet aircraft. Not that successful in the role that they had to do in ground attack after the [INAUDIBLE] in England, and it was a good aircraft but not quite suited for that war. Let's see, I can't think of the other aircraft, the other Air Forces.
>> Did you get to see any civilians? Korean civilians?
>> Out by [INAUDIBLE] down in the south of Korea, there was a naval base not far away and there was a very nice, in the sea, that we could go swimming. And we went there and I met quite a number of the young sailors, would meet us, you know, we were like foreigners and they were inquisitive and we had chats and what have you, and talking to, you know, people from the embassy, that the present attaché is from the Navy and he knows [INAUDIBLE] as well [INAUDIBLE]. So we had very enjoyable, in our off periods. We went [INAUDIBLE] in the south, was our main base but then we'd fly up to Seoul with a forward base and we did a lot of the operations we did from there.
>> And you visited Korea again?
>> Yes.
>> When?
>> Three visits.
>> Wow.
>> And my last visit was in June or was it July, and I was very, very pleasantly surprised to be decorated by a decorations and presidential decoration that the minister presented me with in July, it was, I believe.
>> Last year? July 2016?
>> Yes.
>> Wow.
>> So that was quite something.
>> Korea is very different from when you first went.
>> Whoa. You know, it's quite unbelievable. I tried to tell people what a country was ravaged, you know, with the enemy going through Seoul right down to the south and then being pushed back again, and to see that country now, how it's been rebuilt. It's just unbelievable just to see the road system and the building. It's so modern and very, very well organized and tidy. Very, very impressive. It's quite amazing that the industrial development is fantastic.
>> You must be very proud.
>> Oh, yes, and I'm pleased that I made that tiny, tiny little contribution.
>> It was not tiny, it was very big. It was very big. And when you were involved with the association, do you remember serving with some of the members of the association in Korea?
>> A member of?
>> The Korean War Veterans Association here in South Africa. Your comrades.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. Do you remember? Do you serve in the same unit?
>> Well we only had the one unit. Two squadrons.
>> Two squadrons. How many were in each squadron?
>> No we were only one squadron.
>> One squadron. How many?
>> Well pilots, more or less 20 at the time, pilots and they were replaced as they completed their tour and [INAUDIBLE] and so forth.
>> You must have been very close?
>> Oh, yes. Very, very close bond of the people who served in Korea, but there's so few left at the moment.
>> I know.
>> Like today, there are only two of us. My friend, [INAUDIBLE], was a prisoner of war, he would also have been here but he had another commitment and what have you. But I'm not sure off hand, but I don't know whether we have more than 10 or so pilots left, you know? A very good friend of mine passed away last week. [INAUDIBLE].
>> Did you say you were also captured?
>> Say again.
>> Were you also captured?
>> No, no, no. I was fortunate. I spent just over 4 hours on the ground, very far north of Pyongyang, near the Yalu River, but I was fortunate I was picked up by helicopter after about, just over 4 hours.
>> How did you get stranded on the ground? Why were you on the ground?
>> I had to bail out of my aircraft.
>> Why?
>> Because it wouldn't fly anymore it was, so I had to bail out by parachute.
>> Really? By yourself?
>> Yes, a single seat aircraft, you know, it's a fighter aircraft.
>> And who picked you up? South Africans?
>> No, no, no. A helicopter that was launched from an American ship, the Gunston Hall. This is Gunston Hall.
>> But how did they see you?
>> Well they were given the map reference and I could navigate there, and as it happened, it was very mountainous there and [INAUDIBLE] and I could hear this chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck, chuck come from an ACE51 Sikorsky approaching me and so forth. And I'll never forget that welcome site when he hovered, he didn't land he just hovered and they lowered a rope and they hoisted me up and the pilot turned around and shook my hand, and then we went out again and on the way out we were fired at again and was hit a few times. When we were escorted again by fighters going out, and I wasn't aware what the damage was on the aircraft, but on the first approach to land on the ship we had to go around again. He couldn't land because with the controls I think there was something wrong with the controls. And then on the second attempt we landed and so forth. And then I was taken to the sick bay and when I arrived there there was an American pilot from [INAUDIBLE] that had been shot down and he unfortunately lifted too late before he decided to bail out, and he was fairly badly burnt, you know, on his hands and his face and so forth. I had the advantage that one our pilots had also lifted a bit late so we all knew if the temperature started going off the clock, it was time for you to make sure that you got out in time before it burst into flames.
>> The helicopter that picked you up, was it United Air Force or Navy pilots?
>> Naval pilot, yes.
>> Wow.
>> USS Gunston Hall. Later on somebody visited America and per chance, one of our newspapers met the captain of the ship who was at the time, and I've got some newspaper cuttings and so forth, you know, and he also explained, repeated the story again and what have you. That's quite a small world.
>> So he was a Naval pilot who picked you up?
>> Yes, yes.
>> And you got to meet him again?
>> No, no, unfortunately not.
>> You later learned about him?
>> Yes. The newspaper man from South Africa visited America and by chance met that captain of the ship. It was a captain of the USS Gunston Hall at the time.
>> What was it called? USS?
>> Duston Hall was the name of the ship.
>> Dunston Hall, and the Navy pilot was from that ship. USS Gunston Hall.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. You know it would be so fascinating for you to have a reunion with some of the people because I interview many veterans, and they talk about each other, you know, like British talk about Australian. British talk about, you know, Americans. So it would be nice to do a reunion. Did you have any Australians? Did you see any Australians?
>> Once there were some Australian pilots who visited us and we had quite a party and so forth but they were, you know, at another base quite a distance. But we were three American squadrons with our squadron, formed the 18 Fighter Bomber [INAUDIBLE]. And we had very, very good relationship with the three American squadrons. Very, very good experience.
>> What did you do for rest when you didn't have missions?
>> Well the main thing was swimming, as I mentioned, you know. Near that naval base. I think that was, fortunately, I was there only in summer. If you talk to people who were there in winter, that's another story.
>> I think you were fortunate.
>> Very fortunate.
>> Yes.
>> So time off ...
>> How long was your service? How many months?
>> I was only there for over 5 months, and I've completed the ...
>> In 1951?
>>... the normal tour we had to do was 75 missions, but I went down on my 73rd one and when I got back, you know, the helicopter picked me up and then I went, was taken by small ship to a island, Ryodo Island, off the Wonsan harbor and then with a very icy sort of a trip in the [INAUDIBLE] aircraft, went back to my base and so forth. And when I walked into the office, because we had lost so many of our young, of course, already, as I walked in he said, "Mike, pack your bags, you're going home." So I still had two, three missions to go, but he said, "You've had enough." Because there were so many of our course, you know, who had been shot down.
>> So on average, how many missions did you fly per day?
>> The most, possibly four. On average, it's difficult to say actually, because as I said, we'd fly missions and then you'd have a day or so off and then you fly missions again. By far the most I think we ever did was four, because it was mostly long missions, you know? Two hours, three, four hours. So it varied a lot depending on what type of mission it was and so forth.
>> And you would look for the enemies?
>> Well our main, our task was ground attack. We mainly looked for vehicles bringing down ammunition and supplies and what have you.
>> And you would shoot them?
>> And then we would [INAUDIBLE] them out. And I became so clever and so good at camouflage, eventually they didn't travel by day at all. They'd only travel by night. And during the day they would hide their vehicles so well it was quite something. But it's quite amazing, actually, one of my early missions I flew with one of the experienced pilots, [INAUDIBLE] officer from World War II, who was a ground attack pilot. And I could then learn from him and we all learned from him. We were a number of [INAUDIBLE] young pilot. We flew out to another target and he spotted some vehicles, and he made his first attack and fired and then when the first vehicle burst into flames, we could also then make out the other vehicles but I'm sure if we'd flown past there, we would never have seen the vehicles. So it was his experience that helped up and so we also became quite experienced.
>> There were solo missions.
>> Say again.
>> Solo missions, or did you fly alongside?
>> No, flight of four.
>> Four.
>> We're normally a flight of four and then we did the big [INAUDIBLE] we did on Pyongyang, we had 64. We had the biggest with 64 aircraft.
>> Sixty four aircraft? Not all South African though?
>> Oh, no, no, no, no. The three American squadrons and our squadron, so we make up a quarter of the squadron.
>> And how many losses did you suffer from that one, out of the 64?
>> On that one we lost the one pilot. It was quite a sad loss because at the time he was a South African high jumping champion, you know.
>> What's a high jumping champion?
>> Pardon.
>> Can you explain to me about the jumper? You said lost his ...
>> An athletic high jumping when you have two poles and a crossbar.
>> And he was a champion?
>> At that stage he started with an American roll, I think it was called, [INAUDIBLE] quite a lot now [INAUDIBLE] they sort of go over on their back to cross the crossbar, but his record stood for several years after that. South African high jumping record.
>> Did he [INAUDIBLE]?
>> That was a sad loss. He would have made a very good rugby player. He was a great rugby player, also. Twenty years old.
>> He got shot down? His plane got shot down?
>> Say again.
>> His plane got shot down? His plane?
>> Yes, yes, yes. He called up, he said, "I've been hit. I'm heading for the coast but I don't think I'll make it," and then he was cut off. I think the aircraft possibly burst into flames or so.
>> Do you know when that happened? When the pilot's aircraft is down and his body is burned, then how do you retrieve the remains?
>> Oh, no. There are very few remains. We lost quite a percentage of our pilots, which never recovered because [INAUDIBLE] it's on the other side of the bomb line.
>> Not even the dog tags?
>> No. Very, very few were recovered if they were near the bomb line, you know. The diving line between enemy forces and our own forces. No, I can't quote you the numbers now. I know of a person, I got close friends with him, he was a captain and a very experienced pilot from World War II. I think later on the area where he went down, had been recovered and was in our own friendly territory. They traced the remains, and he was buried in the memorial cemetery down in Pusan.
>> I will be going there.
>> Is it?
>> Yes.
>> Well there you will see, I can't remember off hand now, possibly seven or so of the graves. And the other people who were not recovered because they were too far into enemy territory.
>> I'm going to the memorial today.
>> Say again.
>> I'm going to the memorial today, and I will pay my respects.
>> Oh, I appreciate that.
>> Thank you so much.
>> My pleasure.
>> My name is Dirk Louw, and I am the president of the South African Korean War Veterans Association in South Africa. I have been serving for the past 4 years after being elected as a descendant to serve as the president of this association in South Africa. The South African contribution started in Korea on the 4th of August, 1950, when the South African government decided to answer the call for support for the United Nations effort in Korea, and a total of 826 South African airmen and ground crew served in Korea over this period until 1953. The first forces left by ship on the 5th of September, 1950, and over this period, a total of 36 members paid the highest price. Two of the members were ground crew, and the 34 was pilots, and then a 37th member died 8 months after returning to South Africa, due to the horrendous conditions he had to be in during his days in a prisoner of war camp. Over this period, the South African Air Force has leased aircraft from the United States, and 74 Mustang aircrafts was written off over this period, as well as five Sabres. The South African contribution over this period was highly ... Okay, I'm going to start this portion, just this portion. Over the period of 1950 until 1953, the South African forces lost 34 pilots and two ground crew, and they lost 74 of the 94 Mustang aircraft leased to the South African Air Force and five of the 24 Sabres that was leased. The South African Air Force contribution was seen as a major contribution towards the war, and the majority of the pilots were highly decorated for their efforts. Currently, I am serving as the president mainly to ensure that I look after the welfare of the members of the Korean War Veterans Association and then also to ensure that I document all the information related to the heroic deeds that these men did during the war. I have a monthly newsletter which I then produce and which I distribute to various countries, where people are that are interested in reading this newsletter. We have several functions during the year, which are related to the Korean War, but we also attend several other memorial services in South Africa, where veterans are generally remembered. In South Africa, we have three full memorial sites where the Korean names appear. One is at Air Force Base SWAT group at the memorial. The other one is at Union buildings, and the third one is in Capetown. I don't know what to say more.
>> No, that's perfect. Oh, how many are there now and ...
>> Okay.
>> ... active?
>> The current situation is that the members are getting old, and at this moment, according to my documentary proof that I have on the registry of people that have belonged to the Korean War Veterans Association, and we must please understand that there are a lot of members that never belonged to the association, but the members that are registered with me are, at this moment, 21 Korean War veterans, which consists of ground crew, as well as pilots, and then we have 19 wives, as well as 35 widows. The memorial services that are held are normally attended by myself and then one of our senior Korean War veterans, General Herb and his wife, and the Korean-specific memorials, like the Armistice Day in June, is normally attended by the majority of the veterans, as well as the majority of the descendants. So we have a huge contribution by the members on that occasion. We have several small functions during a year. We try to see where we can accommodate the needs of the members, and then as well as where there are a lot of the ... See, I can't say a lot of.
>> It's okay.
>> Okay, I can start over at this portion again. They are several small events during a year where there are associations in South Africa, like, for instance, the International Youth Foundation, which normally wants to do some dances for the veterans and entertainment, and the South African volunteers went to Korea, and they went to a country they never have heard of before, and they set foot in a country where they have never been before, and they have defended people that they've never met before. I'm proud to say today that I am very honored to be part of this association, and like one of the senior veterans said on the question why he really fought in the war, [INAUDIBLE] said that as everybody has a quest, it was their quest to help those that couldn't help themselves.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> My name is Tom Harsalehr.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I’m 87 years old.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> When I was 22, I left, in 1950 … January 1953, and I came back in 1954.
>> But it was great.
>> It was radio work.
>> In Korea, my job was a radio man. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was a radio man, and I was up with the commanders, commanding officers. My children know nothing at all about my past, and I want to keep it that way.
>> Why?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Because I lost my two best friends there.
>> Hmm. How?
>> Killed.
>> Killed in action.
>> Killed in action.
>> Hmm, it must have been very painful.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> But you served, and you made a sacrifice, and something great came out of it, and aren’t you proud? Don’t you want to share that with your children?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I’ve always found it extremely difficult to talk about this.
>> Even after almost 70 years?
>> I have everything here and here. It’s for me and not for other.
>> Well, how about maybe not your personal, but how about your … Well, how about this? In war …
>> Yes.
>> There’s a lot of pain and suffering, but sometimes, there’s also humanity.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Like caring for the civilians, kids, I hear a lot about veterans remembering, soldiers remembering orphans. Do you remember anything like a touching story of humanity? You mentioned “M*A*S*H,” something laughing, something funny.
>> I got three friends over there, three dogs.
>> Three dogs?
>> Yes.
>> You had three dogs?
>> Three dogs.
>> Oh.
>> That’s after the war.
>> After the war, when you were a cook?
>> Yes.
>> Yes, do you remember their names?
>> I’ve got everything. No, I don’t know, but I can give to the dogs anything.
>> Yeah, dogs are man’s best friend. Well, so you mentioned that two of your best friends died, and I know 124 Dutch men, servicemen died. What do you think is … What do you think other people should know about the Dutch service?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Something different about Dutch service than other …
>> You mean what they do over there in Korea?
>> Whether what you did or what you think is very important, like protecting …
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> … other soldiers, and …
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I will need … He doesn’t want to to discuss the extraordinary things that were particularly Dutch because …
>> No.
>> … of his friends.
>> No, but … No, I’m not talking about personal story. I’m talking about, well, numbers. You’re part of the Association. What … Why is the Association important? Why do you think Dutch or the rest of the world should remember this war? Because it’s called the Forgotten War.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, I …
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, no, that’s my friends [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I have … These are my comrades here, but we never talk about the things that we have personally experienced in the war.
>> I know, but I’m not talking about personal experience.
>> No.
>> I’m talking about …
>> No? Okay.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> The important thing about this Association …
>> The Forgotten War.
>> … is that it’s … It remembers the Forgotten War that Dutch history books forgot, literally, and it is hardly taught at school [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was introduced to the Korea Association by a Mr. Ralph who came to see me at home and told me about this, and that’s why I became a member.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I go to the annual ceremonies.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> And I accompany all the … all my comrades here to the grave.
>> Explain to me about … You wanted to explain to me about the dog tags.
>> This is for the dog. Listen. In Korea, when you’re on the line, and you have them. This one and when you are dead or killed, then she take this. She take this.
>> Okay, mm-hmm, ah.
>> But the medics, she coming, and she take this one. Then she take this one, and then she know who you are.
>> Identification.
>> So you have the two of them. One is used if you are killed, and then the medics come along to pick you up.
>> Yeah.
>> And they just take the other tag and know who you are?
>> The medics take this one, and you have this one.
>> And because it’s stuck between your teeth, you don’t lose it.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Well, I am very, very glad that you have both.
>> Everyone present is glad that you have both.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> It’s been hanging in my bedroom for 60 years.
>> I’m very grateful. Last question: Your tie, explain to me about your tie. I love …
>> Your [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> My [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] that’s the Korean [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Association.
>> The Korean Association tie …
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> … with the Indian emblem of the second division.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] forwards and afterwards.
>> Yes, the emblem that was on the sleeves, when they went out there, the Indian was looking forwards, and when they came back to Holland, the Indian was looking backwards to Korea.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> On the right or …
>> On the right or the left?
>> On the left, it’s looking forward.
>> Oh.
>> Yeah.
>> And that … What’s that looking?
>> That …
>> It’s looking on the …
>> That’s only the [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> It’s just the Association tie.
>> Yeah.
>> Hmm.
>> You like it?
>> I love it.
>> You want it? You want to have it?
>> He’s looking to the right, so he was going out there.
>> You want one?
>> Yeah.
>> Last question, have you visited Korea?
>> Yes, 2 years ago.
>> Tell me about it.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> November 2015, he was there.
>> All different, very, very different, when we come to Korea, we see only one thing: water, sand and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] very bad. In Seoul, one bridge, and now … [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. You’ll … In Seoul, you have only one street [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> There’s only one street which was paved.
>> Only one street, for the pigs, and rest of the land, nothing.
>> Mm-hmm, the rest of the land were just …
>> The houses, very …
>> … no roads.
>> Oh, very bad, very bad [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> That was the first time.
>> And after that, I come back.
>> And the only time [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> When you were a soldier, when you went out, then.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> And now?
>> And now?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Things have improved so much it seems as if we are holding back. We are now primitive. They are very advanced.
>> Yeah [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> They are way ahead.
>> Well, I hope that you saw that, and you were very, very proud.
>> Okay, thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> I am Case Mutzhaven, born January the 5th, 1928. I went to Korea on March 16th, 1951. When the war broke in Korea, I was, at that time, in Boston for 3 months to take over some ships: the USS Rinehart and the USS Burrows. I was still a good face on board. March 16th, I went to Korea, and I came back June 21, '52, and there was a celebration of my daughter. She was 1 year old. I had never seen her before. I was married just before I went to Korea. Yes, it was a very hard time. But I was in the Navy, of course, and at that time, we are serving in the Yellow Sea in Korea to kite the jeep carriers, were in there for planes who bombardments in Korea, and we have ... Also, every 3 weeks, we went back to Japan, Sasebo, to rest and to fulfill our equipment, and then we go back to the Yellow Sea again. Once we are also on the east coat, and we enter the Bay of Busan, and that was the celebration of 175 days of shooting at Busan to the trains who are entering to go from the North to the South for things to bring for the soldiers there. In the bay, there was ... Do you know Busan on the east coast? It is in the north, and there are the three ships, and every 120 degrees, we are shooting in Busan. There was 175 days of shooting, and when you look at the looking glasses, you see that everything is standing alone. Okay. No, and that is ... And what we have done there, it was very difficult things in the Yellow Sea. At night, there were also fisherman's vessels, small vessels, and they had a radio on board, but they don't know the procedures there. So when an American spotted on the PPI and spoke and they asked for the code for friend or foe, when they don't answer within 1 minute, they shoot, and that happens there. So we had several people on board who lost their legs, and it was very bad. So we talked together that we make an opportunity that we can send telegraphs at night to those vessels to protect those vessels, and we did. So I sat there along the board. When I came on board of a vessel, my contact with the captain, and I gave him a hand, and they can go to sleep, and I sit behind the radio, and I know the the procedures of course, and so we protected those vessels. It was a good thing.
>> You were the past president of the association.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> When was the association founded?
>> It was founded in 1977.
>> Oh, wow!
>> And it has been about 40 years this year. Forty years this year, yeah. Forty years.
>> So 4,000 members fought from the Netherlands, right? And how many are surviving right now, and how many members are in the association?
>> The members of the association, all over there is about ...
>> Two hundred and seventy-four.
>> No. No. No. There's only the veterans, not the whole. In all, there is about 500?
>> Yeah.
>> About 500 members.
>> Five hundred members.
>> And from the 500 members, there are 275 veterans from the 5,000, more than 5,000. The percent is that we have more casualties in the Korean War than the Americans, which is 30.
>> Right. You're right.
>> Yeah, 124.
>> Yes, out of 5,000.
>> Out of 5,000. It was a lot.
>> That's more than 20 percent.
>> Yeah, more than 20 percent. Yeah.
>> Because Americans, 1.8 million fought. You're right. Wow. Wow. Well, what do you think ... Again, what do you think is ... What are you so proud of with the Dutch in the war? Let's just say all the presidents of different organizations meet and brag about, "Well, we did this." What would you say about Dutch contributions?
>> The contribution was very good, especially in the Army. But in the Navy, we only were on the open sea. I one time was on Incheon, on land, and also in Busan. We also rescued, and we tried to rescue a pilot who was down in the Yellow Sea. We came there with his parachute, and behind his parachute, he was already drowned. So we brought him to Busan for the cemetery there.
>> American pilot?
>> American pilot, yeah. I was finding that was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Do you remember other nations, other people? Americans, obviously, but do you remember others?
>> Yes. When we got to the vessels, then we go by helicopter or by slope to go to the vessels. And when I got back to the vessel from the destroyer of Australia, the Warramunga, I slept there. That was a very good membership for the people there.
>> Well, explain to me a little bit about your medals.
>> My medals?
>> Yeah, you have a lot of medals.
>> Yeah, I have a lot of medals. This is the Knight of the Order of O'Ryan. This medal is the medal of the 4 days walking in the Netherlands. I did it twice. That is the United Nation medal. You know them, yes. And this is the war medal of Korea, and that's the peace medal.
>> Talking about peace, you know that the Korean War never ended?
>> Never ended, yeah. No. No. Still an armistice in this moment. Yeah, and I'm convinced that it will be this century that says, "We'll unify the whole peninsula."
>> Well, I hope this century! I hope sooner than the century, but yes.
>> I said within this century, okay? It can be next year but then also over 50 years.
>> Hopefully in many of the veterans' lifetime we will see a unified Korea.
>> But you don't know what Trump and the new president of Korea are doing. I don't know what's happened with him.
>> And we don't know what's going on with the North Koreans either.
>> North Korea, no.
>> Well, have you been ... Last question. Have you been back to Korea?
>> Yes, several times.
>> Several times?
>> Yes. Yes, the first time was with the Minister of Defence in 2001, and I was also convinced that the people were very friendly. That is so kind, and then I was also in 2003 there, 2007 with an invitation from Mr. Moon, and I was in his castle. Mr. Moon, you know that? Have you ever been there? No, you've never been there?
>> Well, again, thank you so much for your service, and on behalf of the Korean people, I appreciate your sacrifice. Thank you.
>> You're welcome.
>> My name is Jolke Rijsdijk. I born in [INAUDIBLE] in 1928 and served in [INAUDIBLE] versus the Korean ...
>> Volunteer.
>> Volunteer.
>> Volunteer
>> ... Volunteer in 1950 after 2 years in Indonesia service. I awarded the Medal of Honor from Indonesia and Korea, [INAUDIBLE], the medal of [INAUDIBLE] ...
>> United [INAUDIBLE].
>> United Nations.
>> [INAUDIBLE] Korean War Medal.
>> And I was in Korea in 1950 with about the [INAUDIBLE]. After shooting in the range where there's the American troops, they say to us, "You can come to the front. You are ready for shooting everywhere every day." So we started in 1950 to go to the front line, first to Taegu, afterwards to Suwon and later to [INAUDIBLE].
>> Kusongpo-ri. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Above [INAUDIBLE] Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> Hoengsong.
>> And [INAUDIBLE] by the Chinese troops. We started to go to help three to five because the Chinese held the North Koreans in force, so on the upper side of the street [INAUDIBLE] died [INAUDIBLE] ...
>> Preacher? Preacher?
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> ... priest died, and the paid boss died with 15 other guys, two corporal sergeants and so on. So [INAUDIBLE] little bit.
>> What does this mean? Were you an artillerist? Right here.
>> Combat rifle.
>> Combat rifle.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Several days on the front line.
>> Yeah.
>> Ah, oh.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> If you are 90 days in the front line, you get from the Americans the Combat Rifle. It's the one.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Means that you have 90 days on front ...
>> Ninety days on the front line, yeah.
>> ... on the front line.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Straight? Ninety days straight?
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Straight? Ninety days straight?
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Straight on the line.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Radio man.
>> Uh-huh.
>> [INAUDIBLE] people I go with in the radio, and afterwards, North Korea, I came back in [INAUDIBLE] 40 years by the [INAUDIBLE] things.
>> [INAUDIBLE] things.
>> Connections.
>> Connections, yeah. Telephone.
>> Connections.
>> Telephone, ah.
>> Radio.
>> Wireless operator.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I was wireless operator ...
>> [INAUDIBLE] wired radios.
>> ... and made steps in different ranks.
>> Wow. In the Armed Forces?
>> In the Armed Forces, yeah.
>> He stayed there.
>> For 40 years?
>> Yes.
>> For 40 years, yeah.
>> Hmm, just like Grandpa [INAUDIBLE].
>> Every 36 years, you get a golden medal.
>> Mm.
>> Thirty-six years.
>> Did he say that he received the Medal of Honor?
>> No, that's ... What he's talking about is the medal that you are 36 years in the army.
>> Army, 36 years, wow.
>> But he stayed longer than that.
>> You stayed longer?
>> Yeah.
>> Wow, so what are you proud about the Dutch in the Korean War?
>> Wait a moment. I was in 1998. They came revisit in Korea with my son.
>> Mm.
>> And he works in Korea with the [INAUDIBLE] ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... oil platforms, to build oil platforms.
>> In Korea?
>> In Korea.
>> Wow.
>> And he brings it to start ... to Africa and all over the world.
>> Does he still live in Korea?
>> The Koreans platforms. They build in South Korea.
>> So he lived in Korea, your son?
>> And now he lives here in [INAUDIBLE].
>> Okay.
>> But he goes everywhere with the platforms. He brings it back, and then during the start, they test it the [INAUDIBLE].
>> Wow.
>> And the platforms bring to the power of the place.
>> So you remember serving with many comrades because you were in the army for 40 years, long time.
>> Yeah.
>> So looking back, Dutch in the Korean War played a very important role, right?
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Name couple that you feel are very important for young people to know about Dutch in Korea.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Yeah? [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Yeah? [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I don't do that, but there are others today do that. They talk in schools, classes, over Korea.
>> Mm.
>> And now my four [INAUDIBLE] go in ...
>> Grandchildren.
>> ... go in May to Korea.
>> Mm, good. Peacetime ...
>> [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah.
>> ... to learn ...
>> Four.
>> ... to learn about the Korean War.
>> Going for a week now, Korea.
>> Oh, okay.
>> It's nice, isn't it?
>> Yes. Do you ... Did you go back to Korea?
>> No, I not.
>> To 1998 ...
>> Maybe I go to [INAUDIBLE]. That's far enough.
>> You went to Korea with your son ...
>> In '98.
>> ... in 1998. How about recently?
>> No, there were [INAUDIBLE] British over there now.
>> Did you go recently?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Yeah.
>> And what's the last time? In 1998.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> I hope you enjoyed it.
>> It was very nice ...
>> Very nice.
>> ... to be there.
>> Well, thank you so much for your service. Thank you.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Oh.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Apikleiner, is his name. Born in ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... 1932 in Heerenveen, which is in the north. You were 22? [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Twenty-two, yes, 22 years old. Now, I'm 18 years old in military years.
>> You went into the ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... military service when you were 18 years old.
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], 21.
>> I was 21 when I went to Korea.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> My parents wouldn't allow me to go.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> His parents were very cross with him, and his oldest brother was 27 years old, and he started crying because his younger brother was leaving.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that was in September, the Korea [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> We went to Korea in September, and I was there for 1 year.
>> Yeah, 1 years, and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> He got homesick. He wanted to go back, but he knew he had to continue.
>> Regulation that, it was [INAUDIBLE] before the ceasefire. The ceasefire was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> They were there ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... before the ceasefire, and they knew it would be coming soon, and a few days more and a few days more.
>> Yeah.
>> Fourteen days later, it was announced, ceasefire.
>> Ceasefire.
>> And they were happy.
>> Yeah, it happened on [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], all the fighting, fighting, fighting, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and it was a ceasefire, and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was walking the patrols ...
>> Yeah.
>> ... every day, day-in, day-out, and that was very exhausting, and I do not [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Last year ...
>> Last year.
>> ... my friend and I went back in May.
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> It was hardly recognizable at all in Hongseong. When we were there, it was just the bare mountains, and now it's green and beautiful.
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> We went to the cemetery where all my friends, my comrades were buried, and that was very emotional.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> It was difficult to say, "Good-bye," when we had to fly back.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> I would like to go back there for the rest of my life now. It's so beautiful there.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> His dream is that it's one Korea.
>> Yeah.
>> Just one Korea.
>> And [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> When he was leaving, the local residents there said to him, "What are you going to remember when you go back to Holland?" And he said, "That's also very emotional."
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Mm-hmm.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Oh, the parades.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> He was referring to the border with North Korea, that they hold parades and ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> ... shows of spirit ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] South Korea is defiant for North Korea, but that isn't true. South Korea is defiant for North Korea. North Korea is defiant for South Korea, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and South Korea [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom.
>> But I want to mention his business out there.
>> Did someone say for Ireland?
>> I went to the schools, and I spoke to the schoolchildren about this, and they said, "What did you expect to find when you came back?" and he said, "Exactly this."
>> Yeah.
>> Maybe it's good to tell that this organization, yeah, the old Korean Warriors have adopted a school in Korea.
>> Oh.
>> This is what he is talking about.
>> Yeah.
>> So they went to that school, Alice Goldwinn, Samuel?
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Samuel's school ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> And then Dutch school, and every year they're giving money to that school for their development. This is what we ... came through from our lost entities.
>> Yeah, but you don't need it anymore because Korea is from a poor, poor country, now a rich country.
>> Oh.
>> Developed country, so we can only now special scholarship to people what had very good conduct.
>> Scholarship?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> To students that have high achievements?
>> Yep.
>> Hmm, wow, for how long? Since when?
>> Oh, oh, many years.
>> Many years.
>> Actually in the '70s, yep.
>> Oh, my god.
>> That school was all ...
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, my god.
>> Yeah.
>> ... supported by this association.
>> So you have many grandchildren?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> He's not talking about that.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> This is a [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Blue, blue ...
>> Blue eyes.
>> Yeah.
>> Hey, cut it out.
>> Yeah.
>> No, no.
>> One more thing that I think is important that I'd say, the Dutch, because it is the Forgotten War.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> It's called the Forgotten War, and the Dutch see everything upside down. They know very little about it, and they think that the South Koreans are the enemy of the North Koreans instead of the other way around. Many Dutch think that because they were not educated.
>>[FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yes, they've been brainwashed.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] South Korea is also failed, but that isn't true.
>> Brainwashed.
>> That isn't true. South Korea [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yes, the North Koreans have been brainwashed to believe that the South Koreans are their enemy.
>> Yeah, and I hope so maybe next years, back to Korea.
>> You want to go back next year?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], yeah, yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> His son will go with him.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> You're making a mistake.
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], but this, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, I like Korea, yes, oh, yes.
>> Well, Korea loves you.
>> Yeah, Korea love me? Okay, thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Okay.
>> I'm so grateful. Thank you. Oh.
>> My name is Phil Altemus Ludovic Highmund. I was born in 1931. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Born February 18th, 1931.
>> Yeah. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I joined the Limburg Military.
>> I then to the war in Korea, and then it got [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and I was 6 weeks in Korea until the cease-fire came.
>> I was only in Korea for 6 weeks when the cease-fire came.
>> I have 1 year in Korea with the patrol [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], Lex. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] I can't think of the name. I said, "Okay."
>> After the cease-fire, I stayed in Korea for 1 year, and I was on patrol. I had a half-Korean boy who was my helper. I forget his name. It was a Korean name.
>> I cannot speak a Korean name. I speak to the boy. I say to you, "Lex."
>> I called him Lex, and he accepted that name.
>> I have 1 year with Lex in Korea, and it was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Lex and I spent 1 year together, but when I had to leave, of course, he stayed there. I also had a little girl in Korea called Long-Kyung.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] no same people can go ... Only the American military, military, military and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[ Chatter ]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[ Chatter ]
>> Lex was my best comrade. I spent a lot of time with just military people, but I really liked the Korean people who lived there, and they were very kind to me. I liked them. They were open and friendly.
>> Lex had learned [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. Lex [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] no people, no people. It was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> He was at the fort post with Lex, and he said, "I can hear people," and Lex said, "That's not people, that's frogs."
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I left Korea. I went home, and I forgot to ask Lex for his address.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Now, I think of Lex a lot of the time. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Next year, I'm going back.
>> Maybe you can find him!
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Oh, I had photos but not of Lex.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I gave those photos, and they're now in the museum.
>> Well, you were there for 1 year, right? And you were there after the Armistice.
[FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Dinner is ready.
>> Dinner is announced.
[FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> You were there after the Armistice, after.
>> Yeah.
>> So before and after, what were some of the major differences?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I had changed.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was very angry. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] I became very easily angry later.
>> At one time, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> It was difficult to contain it.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I would relive my problems at night.
>> Well, I hope that when you go visit Korea that you can let it go ...
>> Yeah, maybe I go to [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> ... and that you can find peace in your heart.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> My English name is Bill Kramer. I'm born in Amsterdam, 19 December 1934. I joined the Navy when I was 16. After 2 years, then I was 18. I joined a ship for Korea. The Dutch Navy had six ships, always 1 year in Korea. We arrived just after peace fire, so I don't experience the shooting, but we did always patrol, checking for [INAUDIBLE] assistant to aircraft carriers and so on. But we had it a lot better than the ships before. We go regular to Japan to refuel food and R&R for the crew, rest and recreation for the crew. We go [Indistinct] and so we had a wonderful time in Japan, and in Korea, I really was only 9 days. Then I was ashore. We were ashore two times in Pusan and one time in Imjin. Imjin is the harbor of Seoul. Pusan was, during that time, nothing, only some American nationhood a couple concrete buildings but were nothing left. I was last May in Pusan, and I saw a wonderful, big city, and I was in 2008 in Korea. I was not to Pusan but before to the 38th border, and we saw just [INAUDIBLE] back in Korea, and we saw a nice train station that is built for connection from Pusan, Seoul to Paris, yeah. North Koreans don't allow to make railway complete, but impression of Korea is very, very high, and the people is so nice and friendly. I have no words for it, so don't ask me. It's too difficult. I was back in Holland in 1954, and I got an accident in 1957 and a medical discharge in 1960, so that's my story.
>> Well, first of all, you must have been very proud when you went to Korea because you were part of Korea becoming what it is today. All right. So thank you very much, and not a lot of people know that the Dutch stayed after the war. People think, "Oh, armistice, and everybody go home," but that's not true.
>> No, no, after my ship [INAUDIBLE] another ship that arrives in 1954 until 1955.
>> Yes, a lot of people don't know that the countries that participated stayed until 1955.
>> But from the Navy, only two men are died, one quartermaster. It's in very heavy storm overboard. He went to save one of the lifeboats, and he was not fastened and get overboard. They never find him, and a radioman in Korea was calling ashore, little, little boat to pick up a Korean officer that was wounded to give him medical help, but the engine of the Dutch boat [INAUDIBLE]. It was English, and it makes the same noise as not Korean fishing boats, so it was foggy, and it starts fire, and the boat had a noise, so it was friendly fire, okay?
>> Maybe you can tell about what your experience, the revisit from last year with your ...
>> Yeah, yeah, I was ...
>> ... last experience with Korea.
>> ... Back in 928 last year again, and last year, it was very special because the Korean government are allowed that people who died here in Holland that all Korean veterans that are cremated can go back to Korea and go to Pusan International Cemetery. In Pusan, the cemetery is the only in the whole world what is from the United Nations, and so [INAUDIBLE].
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Next year [INAUDIBLE]. When we arrive on the air field in [INAUDIBLE] and complete guardian watch [INAUDIBLE]. After that visit, we got a DVD that a whole studio and DVD that pictures only about 700. He was there, and he was there and I.
>> When? November?
>> No, May.
>> May.
>> May.
>> May.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Good weather.
>> Good weather, yes. Monday, it was raining, raining, raining, and the director of veterans affairs told us, "Don't worry. At 2 o'clock when you arrive at the cemetery, it is dry." We call it [INAUDIBLE]. Rain, rain, rain. We arrive, ding, dong, 2 o'clock. The rain stops.
>> Yeah.
>> It was beautiful, yeah.
>> It must have been very emotional when you went to the cemetery.
>> Yes, and what my buddy told about South Korea and North Korea, we were the last soldiers in Seoul, and [INAUDIBLE] people walk around and a big sign, "What do you think about North and South together?" So we signed it and yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yeah, it was beautiful.
>> Yeah.
>> I am going to visit Korea, Pusan, the United Nations cemetery last after I go everywhere around the world, and I know that there are many Dutch soldiers.
>> One hundred twenty-four.
>> Are they all there? No.
>> Yes.
>> Not all in the cemetery in Pusan.
>> No. One is in Singapore because he died on his way back to Holland.
>> That's [INAUDIBLE].
>> Two men are missing.
>> How many are there in Pusan cemetery?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> All of them went back to Holland. Their families took them back to Holland. I don't know exactly how many.
>> The Americans are all back.
>> Yes. Americans always bring back.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> But I learned that recently, some of the Dutch veterans have requested that they be buried at the United Nations cemetery along with their comrades, so I am looking forward to visiting them and paying tribute. I think it will be very emotional for me.
>> I think so too. Yes. You speak Korean?
>> I do.
>> Oh.
>> I will be there in May.
>> Because in museum where I was this afternoon, I saw Korean boy that works [INAUDIBLE]. He's working by the Dutch police, and he goes back to Korea 2 years ago. He said it was so difficult because I'm a Korean, but he arrives in Netherlands, been there 6 months, so he don't speak one word Korean.
>> But he is Korean.
>> He is Korean, so it can be happen. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> My uncle adopted two Korean girls, and they had restaurants [INAUDIBLE] here in Holland, Korean restaurant.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. Well, they are my nephews.
>> Oh. I told you, my uncle.
>> I know.
>> I told you.
>> I know. It's permitted?
>> Oh, yes, please.
>> Thank you.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> My name is Feri Titolata.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I went to Korea in 1953.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was injured there in June '53.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I went back to Korea, and what I now think about the situation is ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Feri was amazed at the six-lane traffic, of course the modern version of what he had seen in 1953.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> There used to be only one bridge.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> And now there are 29 bridges.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> The hills were green.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> It used to be brown and bleak.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Feri remembers the nicer thing about his period there.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Seventy years of memories, it's hard to recall everything.
>> What do you think is important about your comrades, the Dutch?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> We made a contribution ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... for the future, for the present-day. They made then the contribution for now.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> And I hope that everything will continue to go very well for Korea.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> What did you do in the war?
>> Oh, fight!
>> As a soldier?
>> I was wounded.
>> Soldier?
>> Yes.
>> Soldier.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I would prefer not to talk about that period.
>> Okay.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I came from Indonesia to fulfill my service, and soon after I got here, I was sent to Korea as a volunteer, and this is my uniform.
>> How old were you?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Twenty-two years.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Twenty-one!
>> Twenty-one.
>> Because his mother must sign. He was not 21.
>> Oh, so he was underage, and his mother had to sign to go into service.
>> And after the war, and stayed in the Army, and he retired in that uniform.
>> Oh, wow! Why did you volunteer?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> You saw adventure.
>> But ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> But the adventure became part of your life, your career.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yes, stayed in service.
>> Well, thank you for your service.
>> You're welcome.
>> My name is Dick Hermanns. I'm born March 30, 1927, in Amsterdam. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]?
>> I was 23 years old when I go to Korea. I was a volunteer. All the Korean soldiers, Dutch Korean soldiers are volunteers.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]?
>> I was in [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], how call you that?
>> An assistant, general assistant, you worked.
>> What did you do there? What did you do there?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] fighting. We walked patrol, yeah.
>> What do you remember?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], we go north and almost we have to go back south because the Chinese are coming. Yeah, I don't know more of this. Every day was the same. I don't know more.
>> Do you remember seeing civilians?
>> Civilians, the civilian people in Korea?
>> Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> Yes, we walk on the street. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], she go and shout that I know. All the village are empty, and the winter, the cold, terrible, 25 degrees below 0 on top of the hill. We used [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. My sleeping bag was from the summer. A winter sleeping bag, I don't have. Cold, no washing, bad food, sheet rashes, you know what it is, sheet rashes? Our teaching was in the south with the Korean soldiers, which it was difficult to talk. She don't speak English. We don't speak the Korean language. We use our hands, and you ask something. What is this in the Korean language? And one Korean soldier told me, my sister, and I had a picture of his sister, and you have to say [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. That is what I know, remember that. The people, the Korean people, their clothes is terrible. War is terrible. When I go to the army again, I'd think it was the same in the navy. We don't know it was the very cold. We know nothing about Korea, but we know. I know now. We arrive in Pusan. We go by train to Daegu, hours, very cold. We make fire in the train because it was too cold. In Daegu, we get a little training of a few days, and the Dutch officers say, "Your shirt out. You have to walk sporting naked in the morning, about 10 degrees below 0," [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] the Dutch soldiers are very, very good, and after the training, we go to [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. I go to a school. All the years, we sponsored two students for to learn at the school, yeah, and we go to the front. Yeah, and then [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and the Chinese attack, and we attack, and then we go after a few weeks' rest, yeah, yeah. Your memory, what's left of it, yeah.
>> You fought in the Indonesian War before this.
>> No, this, in Indonesia, was not a war. It was mere guerrilla, not a frontline in Indonesia. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], we set up an outpost.
>> Hmm.
>> From the outpost, we walked every day, not the same soldiers but order. Every day, you had an area, and you have to walk through it. You have to see that the people, oh, soldiers, okay.
>> And you were there for 4 years, and ...
>> Yeah, 3 1/2.
>> Three and a half, and you came back in 1949.
>> Yeah, at end of November, December '49.
>> But why did you volunteer to go to Korea?
>> Yeah, why? To help people there. I go to Indonesia to help them. I join the army after the war, after the Second War, still war between the Japanese. Japanese are still in Indonesia, and in Korea, I don't like the communist. Maybe I think that to help. We were a small unit there, one infantry battalion. It was not much, but, yeah, we did our best. Yeah, that is it. Thank you. Yeah, Indonesia was different, total different. In the city, oh, it was okay, out the city.
>> And almost 5,000 Dutch served in Korea, and 124 died.
>> Yeah, yeah, it's not much.
>> But it's a large percentage.
>> Yeah, but this ...
>> Yeah, more ...
>> And Indonesia, had a main battalion in Indonesia. They had about 60 killed in action for over 3 years fighting.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> We're fighting. We're fighting not every day. It is slow, small fighting.
>> What year did you go to Korea? When did you go to Korea?
>> I go to Korea in October 1950.
>> That was a very difficult time, one of the most difficult times in the beginning. Right?
>> Yeah, I know.
>> Right after Inchon landing?
>> The Inchon landing with the marines?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Yeah.
>> You were there from October to when? From October to when?
>> Yeah.
>> How long were you there? How long were you there?
>> My time in Korea? Eleven months.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> Not 6 months?
>> No, no.
>> You were there ...
>> And the order, the [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] there, but our unit, the first unit, had the most casualties for the Dutch.
>> Explain to us about the first unit. I don't know much about the first unit.
>> That's because most of them are dead. Now here they are too old. From the 640 men, maybe living, 50? What we know maybe, when she a member of the reunion, a member of the association. The number shrunk. A lot of them are not a member of the association. We don't know if he's still alive or dead.
>> When did you join the association?
>> When [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]?
>> When did you join the association?
>> What are you thinking about the ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Oh!
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> When it was first founded.
>> When?
>> 1970, I don't know sure, about 1975 from the beginning.
>> Wow.
>> And every year I go to the reunion.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> This time, it's in Tronchburg.
>> Do you think it's important for young people to remember this war?
>> I don't know. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> No, do you think it's important?
>> It is important, but if she don't care ... It is now each a little bit better. Many years ago, I walk on the street with this, showing people that I do this for my life, yeah? There's no better. There's no better. You walk over the street, no problems. Yeah, that was how we did it.
>> And the Dutch, are you proud of Dutch being in the Korean War?
>> Yes, yes, I'm very proud, yeah.
>> You fought well.
>> Yeah, and my daughter's name is Kim because one of the Korean soldiers killed in action, and his name was Kim. I know Kim is a last night. It's not the first name, and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Kim, yeah, yeah.
>> Because you remember.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE], and I want to go for the second time. I meet my wife and done. I'm studying in the Netherlands.
>> Have you been back to Korea?
>> Yeah, three times.
>> Three times?
>> Three times, yeah, and I meet a soldier, a civilian and with men in group, three times.
>> When was the first time you went back after the war?
>> At 676, it's the first group ...
>> First group?
>> ... was about 18 men in all.
>> What did you think?
>> Everything, we're going for 5 days and a few days in Japan. Yeah, that was the first time in Seoul. You go to Pusan and the palace and the East Gate, yeah. I have a friend. Yeah, I don't know if he's still alive, of course. His name is Kim Jin-Mook. He lived in Seoul. Yeah.
>> When was the last time?
>> The last time, in the '80s. I don't know when.
>> No, the recent time, recently.
>> I don't know.
>> No, when did you go to Korea, 2000? You said you went to Korea three times?
>> Three times, yeah.
>> When was the most recent?
>> What is that word, recent?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Oh, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> What did you think of new Korea, new Korea or Korea now?
>> Oh, it's very, very beautiful, big buildings. The roads are very good. In my time, the roads was terrible. Oh, there was nothing left there, but now, yeah, very, and the people are very ... I was there. There was no one who knew Korean and [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Curfew?
>> Curfew was, yeah. At that time, when I go to Korea, curfew, 12 o'clock, you have to go off the street, we also.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> The '70s, in the '70s.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Now it's ...
>> Not anymore, no, no anymore, no.
>> ... It's a free world now, free.
>> Free, yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And when go to the [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] village right down the road, yeah, but there are some picture of me and my wife in clothes of the Korean, a man and a woman.
>> Hanbok, hanbok.
>> Hanbok?
>> Yes.
>> Hanbok.
>> That's that it's called in Korea, hanbok.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> You must be very, very proud. Right?
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> I always see my jacket from ... and jacket with the Indian head and the Korean flag. I walk on street.
>> Mm-hmm!
>> Not on Sunday, Saturday when I use other clothes. In the week, I use military clothes.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> You see it when you come in?
>> Mm-hmm, because you're proud.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Hmm, well, thank you for your service.
>> You're welcome.
>> Thank you.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I'm Pete Fond du Lac, born 21st of March, 1927. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Which year?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Went to Korea in October 1950. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> It was for that, infantry.
>> Infantry soldier?
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> How long did you [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> You were there for 1 year, came back in November.
>> It was a very difficult winter.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yes, of course, it was a very difficult time.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Cold, very, very cold winters.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Several of my comrades were killed and my foot froze. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> No.
>> Yeah.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Okay. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> PTSS.
>> PTSS.
>> Stress Syndrome.
>> Stress Syndrome.
>> Yeah.
>> Hmm.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Our commander was killed.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> When I came back, I was just a civilian. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> It wasn't difficult.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Had you not had [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] from the [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> We were just the front, so I didn't meet any civilians.
>> What do you remember about the 2nd Infantry Division, your comrades?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I don't remember much about them.
>> Well, show us your ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I don't know the translation.
>> No, no, no, not American. I said about the Dutch being part of the 2nd Infantry.
>> Yes.
>> I want him to show ...
>> The ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] the 2nd Infantry [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, show, show.
>> Show, show them.
>> And you were put together with them? Were you in barracks together?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] okay.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> The Netherlands unit, we were fighting for the same thing, of course, but we fought separately.
>> You volunteered?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah.
>> Why?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was first in service in Indonesia, and then I came back to Holland, and then I wanted to go to Korea in order to stay in service.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I had a difficult situation at home in my youth, and when I heard that they were enlisting soldiers for Korea, I thought that would be a good chance ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... together with Dick Hermanns.
>> But it was a brutal war. It was war, and you were young.
>> It was [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I was 23, 24.
>> Twenty-three years, yeah. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I never went back there.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> No, I didn't.
>> Why?
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah. He said, "I was never shipped back there. The war was nearly finished anyway, and I experienced enough to want to stay away after that."
>> But did you go back to Korea Revisit Program?
>> No. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I didn't want to go.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I had the chance to go back a couple of times, but I don't feel the need to go and visit the cemetery, and I don't want to go back.
>> But today in Korea, Korea is a very successful country.
>> Korea [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... successful land, and that's seen on the television.
>> Yeah. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Dick Hermanns told me so because he's been back.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> I hope that you are at least proud of your sacrifice.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yes, we're very proud.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> But I don't advertise the fact. Of course, it is [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, it's the forgotten war, and he doesn't talk about it often.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> He has sort of recurring memories which are too emotional for him.
>> Nightmares?
>> Nightmares?
>> Yeah.
>> Even now? It's been such a long time ago.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> When Dick Hermanns comes to visit, he's a good friend, and he comes regularly, then they talk about old times, and he has a difficult time later.
>> Mm, well, I hope that I could bring you some peace because I don't want you to remember the horrors of war, but I am here to show you that thanks to you, I'm here.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
[ Chatter ]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> We always get a good reception when we go to the Korean Embassy too, and he understands fully that you are grateful for his services.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> He goes once a year.
>> I come here not as just myself but all my family, my friends in America and Koreans all over the world ...
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> ... but not only Koreans but everybody because you defended Korea and the world from the threat of communism.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Yeah, I know it.
>> So I know maybe it's difficult thinking about it, but I will pray that you find comfort.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
>> Okay.
>> My name is Adrid Fieren. I am a man of 85 years old. I served in the Korean War with NORMASH in '52, '53. NORMASH was Norwegian contribution among the nations that helped South Korea to defeat the North Korean War from North Koreans. NORMASH is a mobile army surgical hospital. The main purpose for NORMASH is to take care of soldiers directly from the front line, wounded which has to be X-rayed and to be operated by surgeons. NORMASH therefore was placed approximately 10, 12 kilometers from the [INAUDIBLE] front line. We were a part of 8th Army and had, as far as I remember, three divisions to serve soldiers from. Soldiers coming into NORMASH was treated there and had to leave before the 3 days. Then the patients had to [INAUDIBLE] other hospitals. NORMASH was served by, I think, approximately 600 people from Norway. Each continent each period of 6 months, and then 106 persons on each period. I was in the guard, controlling all together with then all the Norwegians, and our duty was to guard camp to serve the borders. What do you call it [INAUDIBLE]?
>> Barbed wire.
>> Hmm?
>> Barbed wire.
>> Barbed.
>> Wire.
>> Wire but [INAUDIBLE] to be in the main gate all 24 hours. Together with [INAUDIBLE] Korean soldiers, a soldier from ROK Army. AMASH, the main thing in AMASH is of course the hospital itself, but it has many service functions around [INAUDIBLE] transport service in the camp, guarding and so on, and we had, I think it was approximately 30, 40 ROK Army Koreans [INAUDIBLE] guarding people. I think there were approximately 15, 20 and [INAUDIBLE] to maintain the camp itself. Then the nights especially in the guard, we were two then, one Korean and one Norwegian. We had difficulties, of course, with language, but we tried to communicate a little. But one thing we learned each other, that was a song. The Korean has a folk song called [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] and the Korean colleague on guard, the Korean learned us [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] and we learned him [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] a Norwegian folk song, and the [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] we learned goes like this. [Lyrics] [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. A little like that, we learned, and perhaps in Korea, an old man of 80, perhaps he's singing [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] maybe. Why did I go to Korea? Well, I was already 20 years old. I had finished first military service in regularly in Norway, and we were all volunteers, and on that time, I nearly didn't know where Korea was, but I had to look up on a map and find the little country called Korea, but it was the adventures, one thing, to travel all around and half around the world. I'd never been in plane before. I'd never slept in a hotel before. It was new adventures waiting, maybe a little to take part in a battle against communism, but I wouldn't say that was the main thing for a young man on that. However, it turned to be a very fine trip. Six months after the War, Korea is one of ... We used to say that no other country in the world is so clever to say, "thank you," [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] as ... You know [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]? Norwegian ... as the Korean. I am so happy that I have been four times back on revisit trips.
>> Show us that picture where you went to Korea and that story of the nurse and the patient.
>> Yes, that's a good story. You see here we have a book which we, the veterans in Norway, has made possible, and it is also translated to Korean, and here, I can show you one picture. No, it's not here. It's in the magazine from one of the revisit. This was celebrating the 60 years of peace.
>> Armistice.
>> Huh?
>> Armistice.
>> Armistice, yes. It's not peace yet. There we had a nurse who served in the very first continent in '51, and she was taking part in that trip and [INAUDIBLE]. You see this? That's a lady. Her name is Gerd Semb. She is now a lady of 95, I think. When we someplace on that trip, I think it was in Uijeongbu, we had a lunch there, and when finished her lunch, going out, there came a man, this man to Gerd and saying, "Ah, I must thank you. I was young man, and I had destroyed my face, and you treated me." After more than 60 years, it seems this happening. That was a very funny and a very good story.
>> You're on the cover of the magazine.
>> Yeah, this is the magazine for the Norwegian forces.
>> With Gerd.
>> Yeah [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] is the name of this.
>> Who are the other two ...
>> Here is also the lady there, yes.
>> And who is the other lady?
>> And if it is of interest, this is me, and this is the Minister of Defense in Norway at that time. She also followed this trip.
>> So what did you think about Korea?
>> Now or on that time? At that time, Korea was more or less a ruin. In the place where we were situated, the battles had gone four times through, so it was no houses, no buildings, all destroyed. The people who were there lived in houses built of soil and equipment they held after the battle. Especially fort making ceilings on their houses, they took boxes of beer and open it so it was more like this. If you took the bottom and the top of a box of beer, you will have a flat metal, and many of those was how they built the ceilings, top of the ...
>> Roof.
>> ... roof, yes. Nowadays, Korea, the first time I visited was in '84, I think. It was a new modern country. It was unbelievable for me to come back and see this wonder, and the Korean people, I love them. I really love them.
>> Number one.
>> Number one, they are number one.
>> That's number one.
>> And we have been so happy. We have this veteran association to have a very, very good connection with the Korean ambassador. He is number one. So I think me and all the other Korean veterans also are very fond of the Korean people.
>> Well, we thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> [FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
>> Enough.
>> My name is Fillmore Kent, and I am 85 years old, and I served in Korea from November '53 until November '54. That was the last two continents in NORMASH history. I volunteered, as everybody who served in Korea. The reason why the Norwegian, Trygve Lie, was the first general secretary of UN starting in 1946, and it was very much publicity around the Korean War in Norway at that time. So, of course, I wanted to help. Also, it was an exciting because you cannot imagine today how far away Korea and Norway was. The second reason, or the third reason, was that I needed money to start my study in Germany, and the salary was partly paid in Korea and partly in Norway so you can save. We all had 6-month contract. I renewed my contract after 6 months, and that's the reason why I spent 1 year in Korea. The reason why I was picked out was that I had some first aid courses in Red Cross, and I was already a laboratory man, so I first picked out to serve at the hospital laboratory. When I came down, the position was occupied, so they put me as assistant to the operation tent. It was quite a new experience for me, but I learned rather quickly, and you get used to it. It was after the armistice, but we still had very many military patients but gradually fewer army people and more Korean civilians. After the 6 months, we had the opportunity to travel down to the hospital in Busan, the Swedish hospital, permanent hospital, so we get to know very much some Swedes. We had also very good relations with the Koreans in the camp. We were close friends. I have a theory in that aspect, Korea is a rather small country dominated by China and Japan. Norway is also a small country, dominated for centuries by the Danes. Norway was just a farmer's country with no education. If you wanted to have education, you had to go to Copenhagen. Later, we were under the strong influence by the Swedes, so my theory is that Korea and Norway have more or less the same history, even though they are opposites of the world. In April '54, NORMASH also engaged six Korean nurses already educated to help out because of the many Korean civilians, and I got to know one of them, and she came to Norway in '57 for further education and to meet me. We married in '61. We are still married. We have three children and eight grandchildren. So for me, the Korean event influenced my whole life afterwards. My wife is really happy because it's very important for Koreans to have a family and some success, so she's quite satisfied in her life also.
>> I would love to see her picture. I would love to see her picture.
>> I not here.
>> Oh, wow. Fascinating. You went back to Korea, you said, for a visit, right?
>> Yes.
>> How many times?
>> Yes. I think after ... These are the 30 years after the armistice. Koreans started the revisit tours, and I have been in Korea twice, in '83, so after 30 years, and in 2010. It was very surprising to get to come there and see that the fort is still ready to shoot after 30 years of armistice.
>> Even now?
>> Even now. But I mentioned the Busan hospital Swedes. As I told you, we got along, Swedes, very good, and they were both countries who had commission in Tongduchon to secure the armistice, and they still are there, I suppose, so we could visit them very early in 1954. I'm also a board member of the Korean War Veterans Association in Norway, and we have two events yearly here at the memorial statue. In June, the military attache located in Stockholm comes to pay tribute to our dead, and in the second Friday of November, we have our annual meeting.
>> Don't touch that. With your hands, don't ...
>> Oh. Oh. Okay. Sorry.
>> Okay. Say that again about your Association reunions.
>> Huh?
>> About your reunions. Say it again. You have two ...
>> Yeah. Okay. I'll start from the ... Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Now, the Korean Veterans Association have two occasions to remember the dead ones here at Akershus Castle. The first one is in June. The military attache for Sweden and Norway located in Stockholm, he comes to pay tribute. And also the second Friday in November, we have our annual meeting where we also have a ceremony at the statue, and our president [INAUDIBLE], he is a former officer in the king's guard, and he takes care of the ceremony with flags, with armed guards and military band. So it's a rather great experience for us.
>> Do a lot of people come?
>> Yes, because in our association, we also have members who served at the Scandinavian hospital in Seoul, which was created in '56 or something, so they who served there also are members of our association.
>> Do Korean Norwegians come, too?
>> Yes, of course, the embassy and the embassy staff and some Koreans, too.
>> How about young people?
>> Not so many young people, but my experience is that young people in Korea, they know very much about the Korean War.
>> More than other countries.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, what do you think, because the Korean War is called, "The Forgotten War"? The Korean War, they say, is "The Forgotten War."
>> Mm-hmm. Not for me.
>> Hm. You're right. So I'm hoping to preserve this history for young people, younger generations. I'm very glad that Julie is here because she is young Norwegian, and I want more young Norwegians to be proud of your service.
>> I can also mention that from 2010, Korea also invited grandchildren of veterans. So in the first tour, we had 12 participants from Norway [INAUDIBLE] from Norway, and they had 1 week in Seoul and Busan and 1 week marching along the line, so it was a really good experience for them.
>> Did your grandchildren go?
>> Yes. I had one grandchildren. Actually, I had two grandchildren now, and when I revisited Korea in 2010, I brought also another grandchildren with me, and [INAUDIBLE] grandchildren and also Lucy [INAUDIBLE] on Saturday if she had the grandchildren.
>> What did they think?
>> They were very happy, and of course, it was a great experience for the grandchildren, too.
>> I'm sure they were very proud of you. I think so, right? Because they see Korea now, right? What do you think of Korea now?
>> Now, as I already said, the frontline passed four times through Seoul, so it was nothing left when we arrived, so it's amazing how the Koreans can manage. They are very clever and very grateful, work very hard.
>> Yeah. We do work hard, and we're very grateful people.
>> Yeah.
>> We are very, very thankful.
>> Yeah. Mm-hmm.
>> We don't forget.
>> No, and of course, if you look to North Korea, you understand why you are grateful.
>> Yes. I say that I am very, very fortunate and blessed that I was not born in North Korea, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> So I hope that, you know, you went, and you defended South Korea's freedom, right? I hope that the war will end soon and Korea would finally have peace and reunification so that North Koreans can also enjoy freedom. Do you think that's possible?
>> Doesn't look that way. And, of course, Germany was divided in the same way, and it ended, but you can still see a difference between West Germany and East Germany, even in Berlin. So it's not easy to combine West Germany and East Germany, still some problems, and I suppose in Korea, it must be even more problems. But of course, I will wish you good luck.
>> Yeah. I hope so, too. Anything you would like to say to maybe young people all around the world about war, peace, about your experience in Korea?
>> No. I don't think so.
>> No? Well, thank you so much for your time.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> You have from there, the German, Norwegian soldiers in Germany after war.
>> Okay.
>> And we have those from Sweden, if you see, to Sweden, the Korean, Norwegian Korean there in the middle.
>> Okay.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Do you read Korean?
>> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> NORMASH, 1951 to 1954, wow, 623 Norwegian ... More than 90 patients.
>> Ninety thousand, 90,000.
>> Ninety thousand, I mean, 90,000. Were any Norwegian servicemen or women killed?
>> Three of them.
>> Not in battle, not in battle.
>> Three?
>> But not in battle but in service.
>> Accidents.
>> Accidents?
>> Yeah.
>> What kind of accidents?
>> Driving accidents.
>> Driving ...
>> In Korea?
>> Yeah, yeah, during the service, yeah.
>> Oh, no.
>> And the third one is a Norwegian sailor.
>> Sailor, yes.
>> Because when the Korean War started, a lot of Norwegian ships were in the area, so they worked with evacuation of civilians from the war zone and also the transportation of heavy military material from the fan to Korea and back to Japan for repair also.
>> So ...
>> But it's not so well-known.
>> I only thought ...
>> We have written about it in our book.
>> I only thought doctors and nurses went from Norway.
>> Oh, no, personnel too. To run a MASH, you need more than doctors.
>> One hundred persons in total.
>> One hundred and six.
>> Sixty of them working in the hospital.
>> Each continent, 106 persons.
>> And the very necessary addition ...
>> Cooks, cooks, guards.
>> Drivers.
>> Drivers.
>> Technical personnel.
>> Technical and camp workers.
>> But ...
>> And in addition, 60 Korean too.
>> Yes.
>> Really? So ...
>> About 25 Korean guards?
>> Yeah, approximately.
>> Approximately.
>> And four were working in the camp.
>> And civilians too.
>> So 100 medical personnel?
>> Yeah, yeah, and the MASH consists of 100 persons, Norwegian persons.
>> And 523 other servicemen from Norway because there were 623 total.
>> Yes, in total.
>> No.
>> All Norwegian were volunteers.
>> Each continent ...
>> Yeah, continent, yeah.
>> ... for 1/2 a year, and we had six continents.
>> Seven, seven.
>> Seven at all, and they changed every 6 months, and each continent had 106 persons, personnel, and of those, approximately 40 medicals.
>> No, 60 medicals.
>> So many?
>> Yeah [INAUDIBLE].
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> It doesn't matter, doesn't matter.
>> And of course, the medicals, the hospital is the main thing of a MASH, of course. MASH stands for Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, MASH.
>> There's a very famous TV series in America.
>> We have seen that.
>> Comics.
>> What do you think of that?
>> The scenery is very natural. I don't know where it's taken, but it looks like Korean scenery.
>> Yeah.
>> And the tents and everything is very, very close to ...
>> Real?
>> ... real, yeah.
>> And you see here, NOR, that stands for Norway, MASH.
>> And if you behaved well, you could have a new contract for 6 months. I behaved very well, so I stayed for 1 year.
>> One year, but why ...
>> He didn't behave so well, and so he stayed for another 6 months.
>> You all volunteered.
>> Yes, we all were.
>> Everybody was volunteer.
>> Wasn't it difficult? Why did you want to stay longer? Wasn't it difficult?
>> To stay longer? No, no, I had service after the war or armistice.
>> Approximately 100 stayed more than ...
>> Yeah.
>> ... 1 year.
>> Yeah.
>> Six months, 1 year at all. It was a good pay, you see, after Norwegian conditions, and so it was ...
>> To be honest, I had three reasons for going to Korea. First of all, Norwegian Trygve Lie was the first general secretary of United Nations. He was well-known internationally because Norway had a foreign administration in London during the war, and so it was very much first about Korea and the Korean War. Of course, I wanted to help. Secondly, it was very exciting, so exotic.
>> Yeah.
>> You cannot imagine today how far it was from Norway to Korea and how different the societies were, so it was excitement, and thirdly, I needed money for my study, and we were not so very good paid, but most of the money was in Norway.
>> Yeah, yeah, yes.
>> And we had a small salary.
>> Scrips.
>> Yeah, scrips.
>> Money valued only during war, Korea.
>> Yeah, and the scrips started all in first World War, I read once.
>> Yeah, special money.
>> Yeah.
>> My name is Ron McMillan. I was in the Korean War in 1952 to '53. I served in the New Zealand Navy. I was on the frigate HMS Hawea, and we were there for 14 months. We patrolled up the west coast, went up as far as to the Yalu River and down south and yonder. The ship went the first time, went on the other coast, and that was the one that used to be shooting the trains in the tunnel. We stayed on the west coast, and we patrolled up there day and night.. Our base there was an island out from Incheon called [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. It's now changed. It's got a new name. That was our base, and we anchored there, so we patrolled day and night for 14 months.
>> So you served for 14 months?
>> Yeah, I put in 14 months.
>> Did you volunteer?
>> I was in the Navy already.
>> You were already in the Navy?
>> Yes, yes. I joined the Navy when I was 17 1/2, and I went up there when I was 19.
>> Wow. So what do you remember from the war? Do you remember seeing the troops from other nations or maybe civilians?
>> Didn't see many civilians, only on the island. We never went on the mainland. Some of the other ships did, but they mainly got shot, so they stopped going on the islands. And we just stayed on the main island, so we saw the locals on the island. We still pay to the children. We send out money every year to the children of Seoul for ... We've done that for years and years.
>> Even now?
>> Yes. Yes, we go up there. We go for Anzac Day. The Koreans would be up there now. So they hand out bursaries to the schoolboys and girls. We've done it for years.
>> Really? That's fascinating. Since the war?
>> Yeah. It started some years after the war, and that's it with the bursaries. And we'll go on with so much money to be [INAUDIBLE].
>> Wow! That is ...
>> So that's the only Korean people in the Navy we actually met, was the islanders on that island.
>> Even now you send them ...
> Yes. Yes, every Easter we go to Kapyong. They have that big thing there, and they have all the hanging out at Kapyong. The Aussies do it, and we do it.
>> So since you mentioned it, I want to hear it from your side, the Battle of Kapyong and Maryang-san.
>> Well, we were in the Navy, so we didn't see that. We got up and went up and looked up on the ... We've got the revisits, but we go to Kapyong. That's where we hand out the bursaries to all the kids up there.
>> Wow! Well, you were so young. What kind of impact did it leave on, I guess, your life and the way you look at life, serving in a war?
>> We were young, and we were there. It was a bit of an adventure, that's all.
>> That is true. I know a lot of the grandpas do mention that they went ... But you come back now. It may have been an adventure that you were seeking, but now you're looking back, and Korea is very prosperous.
>> I've been back four visits. I've had four revisits, and every time you go, you just see how it's advancing and advancing all the time.
>> And doesn't that make you proud?
>> Oh, it does. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So the adventure turned out to be something larger than an adventure.
>> [INAUDIBLE] my friends there. My lady, she's one of our lady friends. That's right. And we've got Melissa Lee. We were with her granddad and her dad, so you're not by yourself.
>> I always ask, but what are some of the things in your free time?
>> Free time, well, in the Navy, you didn't have a lot of free time. You had about 4 hours on and 4 hours off, day in and day out. So, you were on watch for 4 hours, and then in your off time, you had to do your home things, washing, cleaning the ship. You had to clean the ship the whole time, and that's it. so you didn't have much free time.
>> Really? No rest and recovery in Japan?
>> Yes. Oh, yes. We went down to Japan.
>> Okay.
>> In Kure and Sasebo a bit down there.
>> I heard that from the Aussies.
>> And Hong Kong. We got into Hong Kong.
>> Oh, you did?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Every couple months you go down there maybe for a week, replenish the ship, and then away you go back up. And so we did a lot of bombarding and stuff and chasing sandpans at night, who were trying to smuggle stuff through on the boats, but otherwise it was a lot of boredom time, really. A lot of it was just, "Where do you go?" and then you'd have hours and hours of boredom just doing nothing, just cruising.
>> Well, it's better than getting bombed, right? Yeah.
>> We got shelled a few times, but nothing ... It didn't hit us. I was a little bit lucky.
>> By which forces, the Chinese, the North Koreans?
>> Well, it was North. It could be the Chinese. I don't know who.
>> Did they have a strong Navy?
>> No, not on our side. I don't think so. There was nothing down there. In those days, the Chinese hadn't put their Navy in there yet.
>> I don't think the Chinese had a Navy. It was just all Army, a volunteer Army.
>> Yeah, that's right.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Hundreds of thousands.
>> Hundreds of thousands. I think more veterans recall the Chinese more than Koreans.
>> Well, you see a lot of the memorial sites, and it says, "This place was overrun by the Chinese." It doesn't say the North Koreans. That's right, the Chinese. So when they joined up, they don't say that the North Koreans ran it.
>> So have you been active in the association?
>> I've been an association member, yeah, just a member.
>> You have so many medals on you from the war. It's ... Any for valor?
>> No. No. No. No. They're all different. That's Korean. That's Korean. That's Korean. That's police. I was a policeman.
>> You were a policeman?
>> Yeah. When I came back, I was a policeman.
>> Oh. So maybe the war did have that impact on you, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I've been a member of the Veteran's Affairs for years and years and years, I try to.
>> Well, okay. Well, thank you so much again!
>> Okay.
>> Okay, and my name is Walter Wideck, see, but they all call me Wally, well, from the time I joined the Army. I joined the New Zealand Kayforce, the 16th Field Regiment, which was a infantry regiment, of course. We went to Korea from 1951 to 1954. I returned home when the regiment returned home. I must say, I have never regretted my time in the Army because I met so many great people, who up until just recently because most of them are now passed away, we always had good friendships, and the same with the Korean people. We didn’t have much to do with the Korean people in the wartime because we were so far away from them. They, of course, were all moved south, as far south as they could go. They were hiding, and one of the Korean consorts that was in Auckland about a few years ago, he took me to lunch one day, and there were some elderly Korean women there, and they had their daughters with them. And one of the daughters said to me, “Wally, when you were in Korea, did you have anything to do with the young Korean girls up there?” And I said, “No, because we never saw them. We saw probably in the whole time I was there, up until the cease-fire, I would have probably seen half a dozen.” But what this mother of one of these girls said, “No,” she said, “They couldn’t see us. We were taken when the North Koreans came down. We were all pushed up into the hills.” And if you know Seoul at all, it’s got a ring of hills almost all around it, and they lived in the caves up there. So they never saw us, and we never saw them. But I made the little piece I added to that, and I said, “Quite honestly,” to the consort general, “if many of our boys had seen the girls that were arriving in New Zealand now, the Korean girls, every one would have married one.” And of course, the mother was in stitches.
>> What do you remember from the war?
>> The war?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> I remember the cold, the intense cold. I remember the heat in the summer, and I remember the noise from, of course, with the artillery. Boom! Boom! Boom! Artillery guns all the time.
>> What year were you? When were you there? From when to when?
>> From ’51 to ’54. It finished in ’53, but we had to … We signed on for a second term.
>> Most people …
>> Normally, New Zealanders were expected to do no more than 18 months. Most of them only did 12 months, but after the cease-fire in ’53, it became very hard to get replacements, so the strength went down, down, down. So they asked a lot of us to sign on for another 12 months, and that’s what we did.
>> Wow! And how old were you?
>> I was almost 22 when I joined up because we weren’t allowed to go overseas until we were 21. That was a restriction with the Army, and I would have been just probably 22 1/2, so, yeah.
>> Wow. Most New Zealanders were older than other soldiers because other soldiers were in their teens.
>> Yeah, there was a lot of teenage units. Well, I was 89 2 days ago.
>> Happy birthday! My birthday is in 2 days. We’re both Taurus!
>> Mine was the 23rd!
>> Mine is the 27th!
>> Well, well, well …
>> So what do you … I know that in total maybe about 5,000 served, Right?
>> The best estimate that is given now because that 5,000 odd could be individual one, but people like myself, and there’s probably at least a couple hundred of them that signed on for the further 12 months. So what they relate to is that basically 6,100 or something served in Korea, but that was because those of us that did two tours, yeah.
>> But luckily, not too many, compared to other forces, died.
>> I think it’s 40 …
>> Forty-three.
>> Forty-three, that’s right. Yes.
>> And wounded. And only one POW.
>> That’s right. Only one, yeah. And he died probably … He probably died 16 or 17 years ago, something like that.
>> And I know you you’ve been very active in the New Zealand Korean War Veteran’s Association.
>> Yeah, well, I don’t know what to call it in Korean language or American language, but I got conned into it.
>> How many are there now?
>> Twenty-nine years ago I got conned into being a treasurer.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I’m still treasurer because I don’t finish for about another 2 months. I’m the last person …
>> Well, what happened to the national? I know the national …
>> That’s a national body, a national association. The Auckland branch is still going.
>> Okay.
>> And I belong to that, yeah.
>> How many are there?
>> It’s probably down to, I would say the best part of 70, 68 or 70. That’s all that’s left.
>> But the national association …
>> And most of those, incidentally, most of those are ex-Navy because Navy boys went … They were allowed to go younger than us, so if they signed on as a seaman boy at 16 of age, which they could, or 17, we’d say, “Good.” And the ship that they’re on went on Korea, then they went with it. But we weren’t allowed to even think about going overseas until we were 21.
>> Because you were part of the Army.
>> Part of the Army, yeah. That’s just the …
>> Part of the Kayforce.
>> Yeah, the Kayforce.
>> And the Kayforce were all volunteers.
>> The 16th Field Regiment.
>> All volunteers.
>> Well, 99 percent volunteers, yeah.
>> Except for the officers.
>> Well, no, it wasn’t the officers. It was one or two specialist people. In other words, a field gun had a specialist called an articipar, and he was responsible for keeping it repaired and because of that, he could … They had to have a limited number of them, one for each battery. So they would have needed at least 12 of them, yeah, six of them.
>> Have you been back to Korea?
>> I’ve been back. I’ve been lucky because I’ve been back four times.
>> The first time was 1984, yeah, and the last time was 3 years ago. And I was supposed to go to two more, but they wouldn’t let me go because the New Zealand government suddenly brought in a restriction that you had to have full medical insurance, and I couldn’t get medical insurance for some reason. I tried 12 different companies, and they all said, “Sorry.”
>> What did you think when you first went to Korea?
>> The first trip I did back was 1984, so I left in ’54, and 30 years later, 1984, we went back. That was the first trip from New Zealand that went back, that returned, and there was 21 of us on the trip. That included a couple of wives, but it wasn’t my wife because she said, “No, it was for veterans, so if I go, one veteran can’t go,” so she stayed home. And it was … Well, I couldn’t believe the changes because when we left … When we got on the train at Kopyang, I think, from memory, and headed down to Pusan, to catch the boat to Pusan. The train was chockablock, and when you looked around, there was nothing. There was two or three small buildings in Seoul. That’s all there was, nothing else. Everything had been wiped, but things like the American PX was doing a good trade in the middle of Seoul. Yeah.
>> But it was so different when you went back.
>> It was so different! The first trip back, and, wow, it had made huge … Pardon me. Huge … My trouble is, I can’t even think properly now. The difference, the changes, were absolutely unbelievable. Yeah.
>> And 30 years since in 2014 …
>> In 2001, I made a trip up, which just included … That was put on by the Metropolitan City of Pusan and the mayor and all his councils, and my wife came on that, the only trip she did that. But she was very regretful when she got home. She said I should have taken those other opportunities earlier, but she didn’t.
>> Well, I’m so glad you got to see the the changes and the contributions that you made.
>> Wow. Look at the Lotte Tower, which is just about to open this month. The last time went up, 3 1/2 years ago, the Lotte Tower was just belowground. They had just finished the base part of it, and I saw it and how it was opening.
>> Again, I hope you’re very proud because that was part of what you fought for.
>> Well, I’ll tell you what, as I said earlier, I never regret 1 minute signing on to go to Korea as a volunteer.
>> Thank you so much. Thank you.
>> I have met so many Korean people in New Zealand, heaps, in fact, the last one …
