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>> My name is Ken Tashiro. My wife and I like to sing, and when we were living on the big island, I was inspired to write this song, and she helped me with the lyrics.
>> What is the song?
>> It’s “This Land is Your Land,” and it was written by Woody Guthrie, and it was sung by Pete Seeger. And so we took those words, and we made new words for it that applied to Korea. I was in Korea from July 4th, 1950. I was there 1 week after the war started. I was in Japan with the occupation, so this song details all the things that I’ve seen. I started out in Busan, went up to the [INAUDIBLE] and had the first battle and went up to …
[ Chatter ]
>> Okay. All right. And then we went up to North Korea, went to Pyongyang, and then we were 5 or 10 miles south of the Yellow River when the Chinese communists came in, and so we had to retreat, so …
>> Were you part of the Task Force Smith?
>> No. If I had been, I’m afraid I would’ve been dead, but we were … I was fortunate and got back, and got back south of Seoul, and then in June of 1951, I had enough points to rotate to go back to the mainland or to Japan, and since I had almost 10 months left, they had me sent to Japan. Then I got out May of 1952, so I almost spent 5 years in the army. But this song reflected my feelings and the third verse about the people that were killed and about the people who were wounded, and maybe they weren’t wounded in body, but they were wounded in mind or in the soul, so that’s what that came from.
>> Can you take it out, the lyrics, so I could show the lyrics?
>> Yes.
>> How long did it take you to write it?
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> Okay.
>> [INAUDIBLE].
>> You know, here I was so surprised that you wrote against the armies of North Korea and the Chinese commies too. Many of your friends, your comrades in the chapters, they’re Chinese Americans, and, first of all, you as a Japanese American, what did it feel like to you? Because there’s a very complicated relationship between US and Japan at the time because it was right after World War II and Pearl Harbor, and you were here in Hawaii. And then, of course, the Japanese had colonialized Korea before, and so there was that very complicated relationship. So what, as a Japanese American … It’s not like you chose to make all of that happen. It was more political. What, as a young boy, how did it make you feel? It must’ve been so difficult.
>> Well, as a young boy during World War II, the Japanese Americans were evacuated from the West Coast. I was born and raised in California, and we were forced to leave there and go inland. And then we went to a camp in Gila River, Arizona, and we were in camp for 2 years. Then I was sent out because my dad, who was in the 442, he was an [INAUDIBLE], he was in the 442, but it didn’t make any difference. So we had to go to Minneapolis, and I went to high school there. And finally we got back to California, and then in 1947, I volunteered for the army.
>> Why did you want to volunteer? I would’ve been so angry, honestly.
>> Well, I’m a Christian, first of all.
>> Yes.
>> And so first, I felt very angry about the war, but then I decided that the war, it’s one of those things. There’s a saying in Japanese. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]. It means, “Can’t be helped,” but anyway. So I went in the army. I went to army language school. I studied Japanese, and …
>> Did you face any discrimination in Korea?
>> Beg your pardon?
>> Did you face any discrimination or racism in Korea?
>> Well, yeah. In any situation, because of my face, I was often taken for the enemy, and so one thing that saved me was I knew a lot of swearing in American language. And I’d swear like that, and then they’d say, “Oh, he’s GI.” So, anyway.
>> …threat. I’m Norman Lee. You want to know when I was first in Korea, October 1951, flying from an aircraft carrier from the Royal Australian Navy, flying Firefly aircraft. Our task was interdiction, which meant we had to keep all the roads closed, and our weaponry was bombs, so we did a lot of bombing of bridges, et cetera. Interestingly enough, we found that you can bomb a bridge, straddle it, and the bridge is not damaged. Am I going into too much technical detail here?
>> No.
>> No. So we decided to do low-level bombing with delay fuses, a 27 delay between the bomb hitting the ground and exploding, four aircraft. Me, the last aircraft in, I had to get in within 27 seconds. Obviously I did because I’m still here. Interesting things, we operated out of Guri, the carrier, out of Guri and Sasebo. We alternated between the two. We were on patrol for 10 days in the Yellow Sea. We alternated with American aircraft carriers. We were there for 5 months.
We relieved a Royal Navy aircraft carrier, and it came back and relieved us. It went down to Australia to be refitted. Highlights? I remember taking a group to Iwakuni to do a test flight on an aircraft, and on the way back, we were still in uniform because it was still wartime. We stopped at a Russia bar, and it was still dead flat, and we wandered around. We were looking for somebody to get something to eat like today, and we came across what we thought was an eating place, and we walked in, and obviously we weren’t very welcome, and it turned out that it was a private place, and then they realized we’d made a mistake, and then they welcomed us. They took us out the back, sat us down, and we had a cow sukiyaki as they called it, lots of acai beer, and then they put us onto the train back to Guri so good fun. Highlights? We went through a terrific typhoon, Typhoon Ruth. We lost aircraft off the flight deck because of the weather. The flight deck is 44 feet above the water level, and we lost a tractor off the front of the island and a boat from behind the island, so you can see how the waves at 44 feet were [INAUDIBLE]. The ship rolled 35 degrees, which is a lot of rolling in an aircraft carrier. What else can I tell you? Ask me a question.
>> Do you remember seeing some of the civilians?
>> Oh, yes, Korean. Interesting, I took the mail from the ship into Gimpo, and as a result, I went into Seoul. In Seoul, there wasn’t a building standing that didn’t have a hole in it, and the only bridge was in the river, in the Han. And when I went back about 15 years ago, multistory buildings and, what, 17 bridges across the Han now, very prosperous country. Two of my course mates were shot down during the Korean War. They both survived, very interesting. We lost 10 aircrafts, shot down. We lost three pilots killed. We incurred 90 instances of damage to aircraft in the aircraft fire. Anyway, when it came time to come home we did. We arrived in Australia and as if we had never been away. There was no … not like Vietnam where there was lots of anti. It was just the flow. We’d never been away, and we went straight into peacetime routine, and that was that. What more can I tell you?
>> So …
>> I’ll tell you a little interesting story.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> We had destroyers and frigates, surface ships, operating all the time, and you would have seen pictures of the Thames in London. There’s a cruiser sitting in the Thames, HMS Belfast and Tobruk. Tobruk was an Australian destroyer, and Belfast was a Royal Navy cruiser. We were on the east coast doing shore bombardment where the pilot directs the fall of shot from the ships. All right? Are you still with me?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Good. Stay with me. Anyway, exchange of call signs between the ship and myself. Went ahead shooting. I made corrections to their fall of shot, and there was a problem. The ship had to come closer. Something was awfully wrong, and it turned out I was correcting the shot from the destroyer on the cruiser’s fall of shot.
>> Mm.
>> White phosphorus, Willy Peter, does this make sense to you?
>> Yes.
>> Anyway, about a year later on back in Australia, we had the Navy officers out to lunch, and their gunning officer said, “You’re an aviator,” and he said, “I’ve met the biggest idiot aviator in Korea.” That was me. Good story.
>> Did you tell him it was you?
>> Now, during the talks, truce talks, we were on the east coast at Hungnam, which is on down the east side. We normally operated on the west side. And the word went round the truce talks were almost going to happen, and we were given a code word, and the code word was Brandywine. And if we heard the code word … We were flying. Heard the code word Brandywine, stop bombing, rocketing, whatever you were doing because the truce had been declared. And the joke went around the squadron that if you had just dropped a bomb, you’d better duck down and grab it before it hit the ground. Joke. We need to worry because it was, what, 18 months, almost 2 years before we finally had a truce. Yeah. Now my reaction to being there? I could remember one time forming up, flying back from a bombing mission on my leader, and I suddenly had a thought, “What am I doing here 10,000 miles away from home bombing these people?” And that was it. I mean, anytime I ever thought about it … When you’re 21, it doesn’t matter, does it?
>> So have you thought about that question now?
>> No, doesn’t worry me.
>> Well, I’m glad you made it home safe.
>> I did, didn’t I? Obviously.
>> And you stayed in the service for a long time until you retired as a commodore.
>> Yeah, 33 years. I had commanded three ships …
>> Mm.
>> … which is good. So I was both an aviator and a seaman officer.
>> Since you were with the Navy for a very long time, what do you think the significance of Australia’s Navy was in Korea?
>> Then?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> Not that great really, the surface ships, I mean. The carrier, yes. We certainly … We did as good as what the Americans and everybody else was doing, including 77 Squadron. But the surface ships, all they could really do is gunfire ashore. It wasn’t a great effort. Well, I better clarify that. They were there from the beginning until the end. We rotated ships through in support as you would do, and some of them were pretty heavily involved, but not like the second World War.
>> Of course. The Second World War was a little different.
>> That’s a little different.
>> And so many more died, and it was …
>> Yeah.
>> It was a little more grander in scale, but it is true that the Korean War was a united effort of more different people from different continents, and I would think that Australians, coming from Oceania, as you said, 10,000 miles away and yet still participating in this war, you may have wondered why. But if you look back, it was really … You defended the freedom of South Korea.
>> Well, I think, looking back on it, we very much recognized the United Nations concept, and if the United Nations said we’ve got to go to war, we went to war, and it really was as simple as that. That’s my opinion. What do you think?
>> Yeah, I became very sympathetic to the South Koreans.
>> Yeah.
>> We’ll do his shortly, but yeah. I mean …
>> Since then, Australia has been involved in wars it should not have been involved in, right?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> The Korean War was a legitimate action. There’s no question about that to me.
>> Well, it stopped the threat of communism all over in that region.
>> So they say, and we’re led to believe.
>> You can tell for sure. I mean, there’s a stark difference between North and South Korea. You know what you fought for. It’s one country, I mean, one people, but the Allied helped South Korea and took down North Korea. I hope that you’re very proud.
>> Well, yeah. I’ve accepted that’s what we should have been doing, and that’s what we did, and you’re right. I’ll tell you a final funny. Do you want to hear a final funny?
>> Yes.
>> On the flight deck of the carrier, having started the aircraft, I couldn’t get my gun sight to work. No gun sight, and I fiddle with it, and I change the bulbs in it, and still no gun sight. And off I went, and we came across some Chinese, and all I could do was sort of point and spray, right? Right back on board the carrier, and I was sitting in a little cafe behind the island with my air group commander, the boss. There was a knock on the door, and a petty officer came in and said, “[INAUDIBLE] Lee, we’ve found out what’s wrong with your gun sight,” and I said, “Oh, good, what? Bad maintenance?” “No, no, no, no, sir. The brilliance was turned right down.” Good story? Naughty, naughty it was, too.
[ Chatter ]
>> Okay, and my name is Walter Wideck, see, but they all call me Wally, well, from the time I joined the Army. I joined the New Zealand Kayforce, the 16th Field Regiment, which was a infantry regiment, of course. We went to Korea from 1951 to 1954. I returned home when the regiment returned home. I must say, I have never regretted my time in the Army because I met so many great people, who up until just recently because most of them are now passed away, we always had good friendships, and the same with the Korean people. We didn’t have much to do with the Korean people in the wartime because we were so far away from them. They, of course, were all moved south, as far south as they could go. They were hiding, and one of the Korean consorts that was in Auckland about a few years ago, he took me to lunch one day, and there were some elderly Korean women there, and they had their daughters with them. And one of the daughters said to me, “Wally, when you were in Korea, did you have anything to do with the young Korean girls up there?” And I said, “No, because we never saw them. We saw probably in the whole time I was there, up until the cease-fire, I would have probably seen half a dozen.” But what this mother of one of these girls said, “No,” she said, “They couldn’t see us. We were taken when the North Koreans came down. We were all pushed up into the hills.” And if you know Seoul at all, it’s got a ring of hills almost all around it, and they lived in the caves up there. So they never saw us, and we never saw them. But I made the little piece I added to that, and I said, “Quite honestly,” to the consort general, “if many of our boys had seen the girls that were arriving in New Zealand now, the Korean girls, every one would have married one.” And of course, the mother was in stitches.
>> What do you remember from the war?
>> The war?
>> Mm-hmm.
>> I remember the cold, the intense cold. I remember the heat in the summer, and I remember the noise from, of course, with the artillery. Boom! Boom! Boom! Artillery guns all the time.
>> What year were you? When were you there? From when to when?
>> From ’51 to ’54. It finished in ’53, but we had to … We signed on for a second term.
>> Most people …
>> Normally, New Zealanders were expected to do no more than 18 months. Most of them only did 12 months, but after the cease-fire in ’53, it became very hard to get replacements, so the strength went down, down, down. So they asked a lot of us to sign on for another 12 months, and that’s what we did.
>> Wow! And how old were you?
>> I was almost 22 when I joined up because we weren’t allowed to go overseas until we were 21. That was a restriction with the Army, and I would have been just probably 22 1/2, so, yeah.
>> Wow. Most New Zealanders were older than other soldiers because other soldiers were in their teens.
>> Yeah, there was a lot of teenage units. Well, I was 89 2 days ago.
>> Happy birthday! My birthday is in 2 days. We’re both Taurus!
>> Mine was the 23rd!
>> Mine is the 27th!
>> Well, well, well …
>> So what do you … I know that in total maybe about 5,000 served, Right?
>> The best estimate that is given now because that 5,000 odd could be individual one, but people like myself, and there’s probably at least a couple hundred of them that signed on for the further 12 months. So what they relate to is that basically 6,100 or something served in Korea, but that was because those of us that did two tours, yeah.
>> But luckily, not too many, compared to other forces, died.
>> I think it’s 40 …
>> Forty-three.
>> Forty-three, that’s right. Yes.
>> And wounded. And only one POW.
>> That’s right. Only one, yeah. And he died probably … He probably died 16 or 17 years ago, something like that.
>> And I know you you’ve been very active in the New Zealand Korean War Veteran’s Association.
>> Yeah, well, I don’t know what to call it in Korean language or American language, but I got conned into it.
>> How many are there now?
>> Twenty-nine years ago I got conned into being a treasurer.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I’m still treasurer because I don’t finish for about another 2 months. I’m the last person …
>> Well, what happened to the national? I know the national …
>> That’s a national body, a national association. The Auckland branch is still going.
>> Okay.
>> And I belong to that, yeah.
>> How many are there?
>> It’s probably down to, I would say the best part of 70, 68 or 70. That’s all that’s left.
>> But the national association …
>> And most of those, incidentally, most of those are ex-Navy because Navy boys went … They were allowed to go younger than us, so if they signed on as a seaman boy at 16 of age, which they could, or 17, we’d say, “Good.” And the ship that they’re on went on Korea, then they went with it. But we weren’t allowed to even think about going overseas until we were 21.
>> Because you were part of the Army.
>> Part of the Army, yeah. That’s just the …
>> Part of the Kayforce.
>> Yeah, the Kayforce.
>> And the Kayforce were all volunteers.
>> The 16th Field Regiment.
>> All volunteers.
>> Well, 99 percent volunteers, yeah.
>> Except for the officers.
>> Well, no, it wasn’t the officers. It was one or two specialist people. In other words, a field gun had a specialist called an articipar, and he was responsible for keeping it repaired and because of that, he could … They had to have a limited number of them, one for each battery. So they would have needed at least 12 of them, yeah, six of them.
>> Have you been back to Korea?
>> I’ve been back. I’ve been lucky because I’ve been back four times.
>> The first time was 1984, yeah, and the last time was 3 years ago. And I was supposed to go to two more, but they wouldn’t let me go because the New Zealand government suddenly brought in a restriction that you had to have full medical insurance, and I couldn’t get medical insurance for some reason. I tried 12 different companies, and they all said, “Sorry.”
>> What did you think when you first went to Korea?
>> The first trip I did back was 1984, so I left in ’54, and 30 years later, 1984, we went back. That was the first trip from New Zealand that went back, that returned, and there was 21 of us on the trip. That included a couple of wives, but it wasn’t my wife because she said, “No, it was for veterans, so if I go, one veteran can’t go,” so she stayed home. And it was … Well, I couldn’t believe the changes because when we left … When we got on the train at Kopyang, I think, from memory, and headed down to Pusan, to catch the boat to Pusan. The train was chockablock, and when you looked around, there was nothing. There was two or three small buildings in Seoul. That’s all there was, nothing else. Everything had been wiped, but things like the American PX was doing a good trade in the middle of Seoul. Yeah.
>> But it was so different when you went back.
>> It was so different! The first trip back, and, wow, it had made huge … Pardon me. Huge … My trouble is, I can’t even think properly now. The difference, the changes, were absolutely unbelievable. Yeah.
>> And 30 years since in 2014 …
>> In 2001, I made a trip up, which just included … That was put on by the Metropolitan City of Pusan and the mayor and all his councils, and my wife came on that, the only trip she did that. But she was very regretful when she got home. She said I should have taken those other opportunities earlier, but she didn’t.
>> Well, I’m so glad you got to see the the changes and the contributions that you made.
>> Wow. Look at the Lotte Tower, which is just about to open this month. The last time went up, 3 1/2 years ago, the Lotte Tower was just belowground. They had just finished the base part of it, and I saw it and how it was opening.
>> Again, I hope you’re very proud because that was part of what you fought for.
>> Well, I’ll tell you what, as I said earlier, I never regret 1 minute signing on to go to Korea as a volunteer.
>> Thank you so much. Thank you.
>> I have met so many Korean people in New Zealand, heaps, in fact, the last one …